Transcript 0:01 So welcome back everybody to another episode of the Overseas Athlete. Today I'm joined by Jack Shields, who's based in Dubai in the UAE. Jack, good afternoon. How are you? We're good, thank you. How are you? 0:11 Thank you very much for having me, Chris. No, no, you're welcome. 0:14 For those that are watching, Jack and I have probably been in contact for about 12 months, maybe back and forth on LinkedIn, um, and just following each other's journeys. 0:24 And, and then back in August, I was in Dubai and Jack set up, uh, some training for my son, so we went down to, to Gulf United and, and took him down there for a session. 0:32 So, uh, fantastic thing they've got set up over there, and I'll let you talk about that a bit later. But I just thought I'd start with, with your own journey. You've been... 0:41 You know, this is part of, of what I want to look at, you know, with these interviews and, and the people I speak to is getting a bit of your journey, 'cause you've gone from the UK to the US and Dubai and, and sort of just, you know, letting us know how that came about, what it looked like, you know, the, the obstacles you had to maybe overcome or the challenges you faced, the successes you had, and, and what you learned from it all. 1:01 So I'll let you kick it off with a start. Where did it, where did it start, you leaving the UK and going to America? Yeah, cool. No worries. Yeah, yeah, no problem. 1:09 So for me, I, I was obviously born and raised in Manchester in the UK. Youngest of four brothers, so I didn't really have much, much choice when it came to playing football. 1:20 And my dad w- has been in football, he's just about to retire now. 1:23 Um, but he's been in football since he was kind of in, in, you know, in and around professional football and, and kind of soccer schools and things like that since he was 23, I think. 1:33 So he's been in, in football for over 40 years now. So that was what we grew up on. All four of my brothers, including myself, um, we trained to be coaches when we were 16, 17. 1:44 You know, as soon as you can get the level one, then the level two. That was something that our, our dad kind of put us through as early as possible. 1:50 So he always said work whichever country you are in the world, whatever you're doing, you can always, uh, you know, be a coach, and having those qualifications help. So basically, I grew up every summer 2:01 I would be at Bobby Charlton Soccer Schools 'cause my dad was running it at that time. So I was in and around football throughout the year, obviously with my teams. I was just playing Sunday league at that time. 2:10 But then in the summer, I had that full-on experience where when I was a kid, uh, because both of my parents were there, 'cause my mom was running it after my dad was, um, when he moved to, to Man United. 2:20 I was being a player there 'cause obviously it was free childcare. 2:23 You know, I was on the camp all through the summer for six weeks, and then as soon as I turned kind of 14 probably, I started to help out being a, you know, kit manager and all that type of stuff, earning a bit of money throughout the summer. 2:34 So I was in and around that coaching environment and, and I just love football basically. But to be honest, I wasn't the most talented player all the way up. You know, I wanted to be... 2:42 I always refused to be a center back, even though my dad told me that I needed to be. Um, and he was coaching at Man United Academy at the time, so I probably should have listened. But, you know, I was there for the fun. 2:52 It wasn't like something where I thought, you know... Like when, when you have a dad who's r- who's really involved in, in the professional side of football, you know, there, there isn't really a... 3:01 And also three older brothers, there isn't really any room for any delusion, you know? 3:05 So it wasn't like I was walking around the house saying like, "I'm gonna be a pro player," because that would've got told to shut up straight away, you know? Because it's... 3:12 My dad always said to me like, "If you're, if you're ready, like I'll tell you you're ready. You know, don't worry about it," kind of thing. But anyway, I was playing casually, basically growing up. 3:21 And then when I hit kind of 16, I had a bit of a, you know, one of those stages where I thought like, "What am I gonna do?" 3:27 Because my three older brothers had gone to Liverpool University, which is just down the road from Manchester where we lived. It was probably 30-minute drive away, something like that. 3:36 And, you know, they'd all kind of given up on football. 3:39 They were still playing at the university, but for me it was like, you know, as I was turning 15, 16, that's when I started to really become obsessed with football, and going there and seeing that they weren't playing, I always used to say to them like, "How are you not, you know, taking it seriously anymore?" 3:52 And all this type of stuff. And they would say, "You know, nothing's gonna come of it, so I'm just playing for fun." And I couldn't, I couldn't take that, you know? 3:59 So I said to my dad, "It doesn't need to be football, but I need some sort of, you know, challenge." I've always been somebody who's full of energy, and I've got... 4:06 You know, I really want to be challenged all the time, and I want those adventures and things like that. So I looked into joining the Marines at the time. 4:13 Um, we even went into the office and things like that, and, uh, my mom's a psychologist, so that didn't go down very well, uh, when I came back home with my dad. So that was off the table straight away. Uh, 4:25 but then basically we, we... 4:28 I was looking around for, for options and I found out that of course in the UK, you know, the only way to be full-time in football is if you're a pro player, and I was nowhere near that level. I was playing... 4:38 At 16, my dad took me to, um, a non-league team called Main Road FC, whereby they had a first team and they had a reserves, but the reserves was kind of 16, 17-year-olds, but they were playing in a lower level, but with men. 4:51 So the whole team was young, but really technical players, really good talented players, but obviously getting smashed every week and, and learning from it basically. 4:59 So I was looking around, looking desperately to find an option to be, uh, full-time basically. I, I wasn't... 5:06 Again, the, the, one of the strange things I always say to players is for me, I wasn't ever like focused on a certain goal of where to get to in football. 5:13 It wasn't like I wanna get to this level or earn this money or anything like that. 5:16 It was just I had this kind of obsession of, you know, when I was 15, 16, and you're looking at these players who you know from your area and things like that, and they're 26, 27, and you think, you know, "Could I ever be that good as them?" 5:28 You know, if in 10 years could I be as... 5:30 And they might not be pro players, they might be playing at like a higher level of non-league or whatever, but when you get in and around that environment and you play with them and you just think, "Wow, I'm nowhere near these guys." 5:38 So for me it was always about if I can get into a full-time environment, then I can actually see how good I can get, and that was all I wanted. I didn't need anything fancy, you know? 5:48 So I found out that my brother who's, who's next to me, who's four years above me, his two of his best friends who I obviously grew up with were in America at the time, and they'd done this, uh, the same thing that I did where, you know, they went and did a football scholarship over there. 6:03 And one of them was He was captain of Man City reserves before he left. 6:08 So again, I thought, you know, okay, like he's doing it, but that doesn't mean I can do it because, you know, I'm not even playing at a, a pro club or anything like that. 6:15 But the other one was, was actually playing for the same team, Main Road, that I was playing for before I left. So I called him and I said, you know, "How, how have you done this?" You know, he was in Miami at the time. 6:23 He was posting, you know, he was posting, you know, the classic of the stadium on his Instagram, and then also after that he'd be at parties, and he'd be at the beach, and all that type of stuff. 6:32 And I just said, you know, "You know, this is, this looks a lot better than Liverpool Uni," put it that way. You know, so I said to him, "How do you do it?" He told me basically you show up, you go to these events. 6:42 They ho- There's agencies that host events, and you do a trial. They tell you if you get in or not, and then they'll represent you basically, and then they'll try and find you a, a university in the US. 6:51 And that's essentially the only way to get over to the US because the coaches over there, they get hundreds of players a day, you know, reaching out to them, the same way I do now for our program. 7:01 But it's obviously a lot more of a direct line if you have somebody who's recommended you or, and they can trust them and things like that. So I did that. I went, got in, did well. 7:10 But then, you know, it came down to, a lot of it comes down to how much you can afford to pay, you know, because in America you, you've got full scholarships and partial scholarships. But full scholarships are 7:21 basically almost impossible to get. Like, if you wanna... I'm not sure how familiar you are with the levels, but, like, let's say Division I in the US, which is the highest level of, of college soccer. 7:30 If you wanna-- It's one in a thousand of high school soccer players will get a full scholarship at Division I. So it's super difficult. And for me, it was basically like I said to the guy, "I don't care where I go. 7:41 I don't care about the level of the university academically. I just wanna play on a good team. That's it." So he found me one which was called West Alabama, [chuckles] which was in the middle of nowhere in Alabama. 7:51 But they'd won the league the last three years in a row, so I thought, "You know what? 7:55 Like, this is a good place for me to go," because what they'd explained to me is that you can use basically certain unis as a stepping stone to a bigger uni. 8:03 And right now, you know, if you're coming from the UK, you know, the big unis will take players from, you know, Man City, Chelsea, like what I just said about my older friend. And for me to, to say to them, "Oh, take me. 8:14 I'm, I'm good. I'm better than this guy who's playing at Man United," for example. It's like, hmm, you know, why would they take that risk? Yeah. 8:19 Whereas if you get to America and prove it, then it becomes much more possible. So I did that. I went to this West Alabama, which was Division II. Did really well, and you know, the first year... 8:30 Basically in America it's all based on individual accolades pretty much. So you've got, like how they do it with the Premier League, you've got Team of the Year. 8:38 But you'll have Team of the Year for the, the conference, which is like the league. Then you'll have the region, which is a few conferences together. Then you'll have All-American and things like that. So for me, 8:48 my first year, uh, I was All-Conference, which means I was, like, ranked as one of the best, one of two best center backs in the, in the, that league basically. 8:56 And the other guy was a freshman as well, which was super rare, and everybody was talking about and things like that. 9:01 And he, I actually knew him from, from home, and he called me and said, "I'm, I'm gonna transfer to Division I because I've been told that this is my chance. Like, if I don't do it now," all this type of stuff. 9:11 So I was like, "Cool. Like, I'm gonna go and do it as well." But at that time you have to get, um, kind of like a release letter from your coach. So your coach has to agree for you to leave. 9:21 And he essentially said to me, like, "I didn't bring you here to be here for six months. I want you to be my captain in a few years," all this type of stuff, "So I really want you to stay." 9:29 Of course, I was really grateful he gave me a full scholarship and all that type of stuff, so I didn't wanna, you know, rock the boat. So I was just like, "No worries. I'll stay." 9:37 And then the second year we did well again as a team. I got the same thing, All-Conference, but then this time I got All-Region as well, which was, like, the south of the US. 9:45 And again, this was the first time I'd been in a full-time environment, so at that time my, my kind of development was just insane. You know, I was going... I'd, I'd, I arrived as a very, like, decent player. 9:57 I wouldn't say a- average, but like, you know, a, a decent non-league player basically. And then by the time I was finished my second year, then everybody started to talk to me about, "Oh, you need to transfer here. 10:07 You need to transfer there. Like, they've got good pro opportunities," and all that type of stuff. So only at that point I actually started thinking, okay, maybe I could do something professionally, basically. 10:15 So anyway, the coach said to me, "Listen, I d- I didn't want you to leave last year, but I made a, a decision in my head that basically if someone came to watch our session and they could tell that you wanted to leave, I wasn't gonna let you go. 10:27 But if they came and watched and they thought if they could pick someone who looks like they wanna leave, if-- I know they would never pick you. 10:33 You'd probably be the last on the thing because of how committed you are," all that type of stuff. So he's like, "Because of that, not only am I gonna let you leave, I'm gonna also find you a university." 10:42 So he started calling around all the coaches he knew, and he ended up getting me a full scholarship at my next university, which was Furman, which is where, like, Clint Dempsey went there. 10:51 Walker Zimmerman went there, who's the captain of the men's national team in the US at the moment. So completely different level. Yeah. Went there, did well. The academics was a lot harder. 11:01 I kinda went to West Alabama as one of, one of the top students in the university basically. I was on the top academics scholarship, and then I got to Furman and I was below average at that one. 11:12 So it was a weird, you know, like it was real like, uh, dichotomy basically. 11:16 Anyway, then I t- when I finished at Furman I got some calls to go and trial in the USL Championship, um, which is the one below the MLS in the US, and standard was crazy. 11:26 I didn't, I, I, I didn't expect it to be as good as it was. I went to Birmingham Legion, which is, is one of the, the kind of good teams in there. And essentially how it works is similar to here in the UA. 11:35 They have a very restricted amount of foreign spots. So on the third day he pulled me in and said pretty much like, uh, "If you were American I would have signed you by now." 11:44 But the, the trial was four weeks, but he was like, "I just need to see, you know, whether you're worth a foreign spot basically." 11:50 Anyway, they also get loans down from MLS, so again, they're always waiting to see who doesn't get signed in the MLS or which players are free from the MLS, and a lot of them are international as well. 12:00 But we got to the point where he, he, he was deciding between me and a guy called Bruno, who was a, a number 10 Brazilian guy. 12:08 He'd just came from Wake Forest, which was like one of the biggest unis in the, in the country, and he was just insane. Like, probably one of the top three players of the, of the squad and he was on trial. 12:18 So I just laughed when he said that and just said, I just said, "Well, what's the point? You know, I may as well leave now." And he was like, "To be honest, it's nothing to do with you, it's just the situation." 12:27 I think they had two foreign spots available. They'd signed one, like a goalkeeper or something, and then he was the one that was left, me or him. 12:34 And I just said, "Even from my perspective, you should pick Bruno because this guy's..." And then even that, his first year he got Team of the Year of the league, so he's like insane player. 12:43 Anyway, at the time I had a few other clubs that I could go to, and I went to one for like three or four days, didn't really like it, and that was when COVID was kicking off as well. So that was February 2020. 12:54 So there was a lot of murmurs around, you know, what would happen if you're an international in a different country, could you leave, et cetera. 13:01 So I just decided, let me get out of the US, get back to the UK, and then, and then see what happens there. So then I went to the UK, started playing for Radcliffe, which is a Conference North team basically, 13:13 and I did really well. I'd say I probably, that pre-season I would say I probably had the best performances of, of my life, even to this day. 13:20 And they gave me, signed me on a contract and basically they were telling me that at the end of the season I'll be able to play in League One, League Two, all this type of stuff, um, which was exciting. 13:29 But at the same time I was working a, a software sales job, which wasn't the most fun, you know. And the non-league life is so unglamorous. 13:37 You know, it's like you're working all day in the office, then you have to rush, you have to get in the car, it's raining, you get to the pitch, it's AstroTurf. 13:46 You know, it's like all of this stuff and you're just constantly thinking like, it's, this is not fun anymore, you know? So... 13:52 And then to combine with that, it was obviously the COVID year, so it kept getting delayed, delayed, delayed. Like every, every week we'd have a game and then it would be, "Oh, one of them had COVID, three weeks off." 14:01 You know, and you can't even train. So it was like... And then at the time my brothers had started Gulf United as a youth academy. 14:09 Two of my brothers and one of my best friends who, who I grew up with at Bobby Charlton's basically. 14:15 So he was, he's three years older than me, one brother's six years, and then eight years older than me, and they'd started this academy. It was just them three working at the time. 14:23 And they said to me, "As soon as we can hire a fourth person, would you be willing to come?" Because it was like, you're next on the list kind of thing. And I was like, "Yeah, of course." You know. 14:31 And, and at the time, uh, they said, "We're not ready. However, you know, if you wanna come..." Because the UK obviously in, in COVID was brutal. 14:39 You know, I was there for like a year or so, couldn't, couldn't really play football and all that type of stuff. And they said, "If you wanna come and stay with us, you can because you can work your job." 14:47 The software job was obviously remote at that point anyway. So I went over there. Obviously we weren't allowed to do that. You know, you weren't allowed to work from a different country. 14:56 But I just thought, you know, worst case if I lose this job, like I'm not too bothered because it's not something I wanna do anyway. 15:02 But then, uh, they never found out and I was working full-time, same hours, all that type of stuff. And then in, I got there in February 2021, and basically I just started volunteer coaching for about six months. 15:14 Like every day after I'd finish work, I would just go and, and coach with, with my brothers basically. And they said to me, you know, "We can't afford to pay you anything at the moment." 15:22 It's obviously just, at that time it was just starting. And I said, "I, I'm not bothered. I just wanna do it for the fun basically," 'cause I loved being around the club and it was, it was cool, you know. 15:30 The kids were loving it and stuff like that. Anyway, then August I started working full-time for Gulf United, and then at the same time the, the UAFA launched, um, UA Division Three, which became open to all of the... 15:45 The year before they'd launched UA Division Two, and a lot of the academies joined that, as in the pro teams. Um, and then UA Division Three launched and we said, "Okay, let's do it." 15:55 So we did it, we joined, and then again they said to me, "Would you be willing to play?" Obviously I said, "Yeah." 16:00 You know, I, I was kind of done with playing at that time, but for me this was like a dream because it was like, okay, so I'm getting to work as a coach and also I'm a- able to play. 16:09 So I was training in the morning, then I would work in the office all day basically, and then coach at night. And yeah, so since then we, I played Division Three. Um, I was captain of the team. 16:18 We won Division Three in the first year, got promoted to Division Two, won Division Two, then got promoted to Division One, and then I played two seasons in Division One. 16:25 And then at the end of last season I just said, you know, like it's, this is too much basically because the club as a whole has got a lot bigger in those years, of course. 16:35 And from my perspective as one of the directors of the club, like at the moment, um, you know, we've got about 400 players in the academy. 16:43 We've got different programs like the scholarship program where we send players to the US like what I did. That's what I originally started doing in, in terms of my office time. 16:51 And then now we've got the pro-development program, which is essentially where we bring players from around the world to play for our B team, Gulf United B, and if they're good enough, they can play for the first team. 17:02 So yeah, there's, there's too much going on in my day to, to, you know, spend four hours in terms of traveling to training, training, and then leaving. So yeah, that, that's kind of the story up until now pretty much. 17:13 Fantastic. Well, that's, that's a great intro and, and I'll, I'll go backwards 'cause I've got a few questions around, you know, how all that works. 17:19 'Cause you mentioned at the start, so if I go back to you leaving the UK, now that you said you got a full scholarship at West Alabama. Yeah. Yeah. 17:27 So did that just come about because you were recommended, as you said, so someone's recommended you. And one thing you said, 'cause I, I, I know in Australia they can, sometimes they'll run showcases. Yeah. 17:38 College scouts will come out, watch them, then they can highlight. But did you have to physically go to the US initially to trial in person? Yeah. No. So basically how it works is all, all the agencies work differently. 17:52 So for example, for us, because we obviously run an agency from within the club, we will just do everything remotely pretty much, and the players will get selected based on our recommendations. 18:02 And the reason for that is because the reality is it's gonna be very difficult for someone to get a big scholarship at a, a Division One f- coming from this region. And if they want to do that, they have to go to the US. 18:13 But in the UK, a lot of the coaches are from the UK, so it means that, like at Christmas time, for example, it was I think probably the 20th of December, something like that, all the coaches come and watch as they come home from, from... 18:25 Most of them are coming back anyway. A lot of the Division Two coaches are like English, Scottish, Irish, so they'll be coming back that, this side anyway. 18:33 So yeah, we did-- Basically they rec- the agency will recommend you to coaches, but then they'll ho- hold a showcase whereby they'll say, "Okay, these are the players that you've, we've been recommending, like he's on this pitch, he's on this pitch," et cetera. 18:45 So then when you're there, you get, start to speak to coaches, they talk to you after games, you know, they'll schedule interviews with you and things like that after. 18:52 So for me, I had like six or seven Division One universities talking to me after the showcase, and then I had West Alabama. So Naively at that time I was like, "Oh, I'm not going to West Alabama." You know, I've got... 19:04 Like University of Cincinnati was the main one I wanted to go to. 19:07 But then when they send you the offer, you know, the offer is often very different to what you expected based on the conversation, because everyone thinks of a scholarship as like a, you know, you're not paying anything. 19:18 Yeah. Whereas most of the time they- they're knocking some of the cost off, but they're, they're expensive, you know? Like- But what-... the university I- What would that look like? 19:27 So what did that, say, University of Cincinnati offer- Yeah... look like as opposed to the West Alabama from a financial point of view? Yeah. So for example, the University of, of Cincinnati offered me... 19:39 Well, a lot of the time you don't even get to see the official offer because the agents obviously work in between the two. But he, he said to me, "It will cost you around $26,000 for the year." 19:49 And obviously you're talking four years. Yeah. 19:50 I mean, it wasn't me who made the decision of course, but you know, that, that was a huge number and it still is a huge number for, for most people around the world, you know? 19:58 So it was one of those where it was like that was off the table straight away. Whereas West Alabama originally offered me to come in for like $4,000. 20:07 But then the agent had said to me, "Just push for it and just say you can't afford basically a- anything or whatever." 20:13 You've gotta play the game of course, the same way, you know, when it comes to any ty- type of, you know, negotiation. 20:18 But I just said like, "I've got offers, full, full ride offers," which I did, but I didn't wanna go to them as much as I wanted to go to West Alabama. So I said, "If you can match this one, um, then I'll come." 20:28 So then he said, "Yeah, come on in," basically. But the thing is at, at the time that a lot of players will forget, a lot of people's scholarships are academic and athletic. 20:37 So for example, for me, I had 35% of the fees covered by my academics. 20:42 So I had like dec- good A levels, I had a decent SAT, so I had a different scholarship, which meant I had to do different academic things when I was there as well. 20:50 Like I had to represent the university at certain events and that type of stuff. But yeah, so I had 65% from, uh, my football and then 35% from the aca- Who, who sort of decides that? 21:03 Does that come through like the coach at the university and your agent? Does that, and they sort of put that in front of you and say, "We can give you this, but you need to do this and that"? Yeah. 21:12 So most of the job of the agent is just to connect the, the player with the university. And then once you get to that point, a lot of the kind of ins and outs are done. 21:22 Like let's say for example, I would be on a call with a coach like we are now and he'd be saying to me, "Okay, what are your grades? Do you do any extra, extracurricular activities?" Blah, blah, blah. 21:31 So he's obviously checking off things because he knows, okay, if he has, let's say he has three As in A level, then I can go to the admissions and tell them like, "Okay, this kid's coming. I'm trying to get him in. 21:40 I can only afford to give him 65%. What scholarships are available for a kid with these grades?" 21:45 But again, I had to go through a full different interview process for that other scholarship whereby like they were also deciding who to give, 'cause that was the highest level of academic scholarship that you could get at a university. 21:55 So when I arrived it was actually only five, five of us were in that group for the whole university, which was... The others weren't athletes. So it was quite a strange, for me it was quite... 22:04 Like we would be going and doing, you know, like reviewing, reviewing like peer reviewed, you know, books or research papers and all that type of stuff and I was just thinking, you know, I'm just... 22:15 But you're there because you, you know, essentially paying you to be there. You know, they're knocking cost off for you. 22:20 So I was fine to go and represent the, the university at different events and it kind of added a bit of variance to my life as well. 22:26 But I don't think there's, there's kind of many athletes who, who are usually in those rooms because the rest of them were like biology researchers and all that type of stuff. 22:34 And I was just, at the time I hadn't even picked a degree choice. I was just like, whatever, you know. For psychology 'cause I got an A in psychology, but that was it. 22:43 And have you found, 'cause I know now part of your life is hugely into networking. You're obviously always on LinkedIn, you're always networking, talking to people. 22:52 Is that something you'd done like subconsciously when you were at college in America? Did you make a lot of connections with coaches, with schools, with people that you do now? 23:00 Or is it just a natural thing you've always done or did you have a conscious effort to do it? Yeah. 23:05 As I, um, as I started to get to like in my last two years as I transferred to my second university, at, when, when we were deciding where to go, my dad actually told me, you know, you need to make, to make sure that whenever you play any team, that the coach knows who you are basically. 23:19 So go and introduce yourself, say that, you know, it was a great game, all that type of stuff. 23:24 Even if it's been heated in the game just because you never know, you know, whether they could, you know, benefit you in the future or you could benefit them in the future and you can, then you have a connection. 23:32 So it made it really easy for me when I, when I first came to golf because one of my main roles was to start the scholarship department. 23:40 So I then reached out to all the coaches that I knew basically saying, "Obviously you know me, I was there last year," blah, blah, blah. "I'm looking to, you know, expand my, and start working in this industry. 23:49 But also if you could recommend any coaches that you know who'd be willing to talk to me, et cetera." So just, yeah, just classic networking. 23:55 But yeah, that was, that was kind of told to me by my dad to, to be intentional of it because he said, you know, you've enjoyed this process, you might end up working in this industry so those coaches could be super valuable. 24:07 And I think that's a real important lesson for young people to, to learn. And I, I, I mean we're all probably guilty of it. You, when you get older and you have experience you sort of learn how important it is. 24:17 Like you always try and be nice, do the right thing. My parents were the same. They try and teach you the right values. But when you can start to do it knowing that... 24:24 'Cause out of all these interviews I have, I'd say more than 90%, their break or their opportunity has come through someone they know. Yeah. 24:32 Not being scouted at a game, not just being picked up at, at the odd showcase, whatever it may be. It's been a personal introduction by someone they've met along the way. 24:41 And as you said, you never know where it leads and whatever door opens. So it's, it's a vitally important skill I think. Yeah, 100%. 24:48 And I was just at an event last week actually which was like a scouting event and that was what I said to the kids. 24:54 I said, "My number one piece of advice is Introduce yourself to all the coaches at one point, 'cause it was 10, 15 coaches at one point throughout the week. 25:03 Because, you know, at the moment we're just looking at a sea of players and we have no idea who's who. And if you're, if you come up, speak, say, "I'm from here, I'm from here," you know, "It's great to meet you. 25:13 What's your club like? Where is it?" Et cetera. This, like, one-minute conversation, suddenly then I'm watching a game and I can pick up a reference of, "Okay, that was the kid I spoke to yesterday. 25:22 That's Tommy, that's Jimmy," whatever. Yeah. Um, and it can change. It sounds cliche, but it really can change your life, like, just getting into that habit of doing that. It just changes, changes the impact. 25:32 As you say, if, if someone come up and said that to you yesterday and said, "Oh, look, I know about golf. I, I see yous have had promotions. I know you've stopped playing," and just engages. 25:41 The next day when you watch him, he does something, like, automatically in your mind just clicks to go, "Yeah, he was a good kid. He came up. He was- Yeah... he was nice. He was polite." 25:48 You sort of take an extra interest in them without realizing it, so it does have a, a huge knock-on effect. Yeah. And I think that's the, uh... 25:57 Obviously, a lot of the complaints of players when they're not playing, for example, is, is the, the favoritism, which is usually, you know, not the case, but also usually the players who are saying that are the ones who are putting the least effort into actually making a real connection with, with the coach. 26:11 You know, they're complaining about why they're not playing instead of trying to figure out what they can do to get playing. 26:16 You know, because at the end of the day, at any level, especially when you get to the higher levels, the coaches are really incentivized to play the best players because they need to win games. 26:25 So, if they're not playing you and, and they're, you are genuinely one of the best players, there, there has to be a reason for that, and usually it's not just a random, you know, personal attack on the... 26:34 Well, I've never seen it. You know, I've played with thousands of players. I've never once seen where a coach has a personal vendetta against a player for no reason. 26:41 You know, it doesn't, just doesn't happen, even though it's, if you sit on any bench, a lot of the players will be saying that's the reason they're not playing. Yeah. 26:49 No, no, it's true, and it's, um, it's an interesting point, and it's, again, it's a, it's a learning, it's a learning curve, isn't it, for people- Yeah... on how, how to act, how to behave, how to look after yourself. 27:00 You have to perform on the pitch, but you also have to hold a standard off the pitch, you know- Exactly... as part of a club or an organization. Yeah. 27:06 And the, the Dubai thing, you touched on it and you sort of skipped past it in regards to, like, it happened obviously quite quickly through COVID. You've gone back to the UK, 27:15 and then was the plan just to come out, play, and get a bit of coaching experience and just, and just see where it leads? Yeah. As part of that, as you say, it's your brothers, so there's family there. 27:26 It's not like you have to sign a contract with, with people you've never met. Mm-hmm. It's, it's again, it comes through that personal connection. Yeah. But was there a clear pathway for you? Did you say, "All right. 27:36 In, in year one, we wanna do this. Year two, we wanna do this," to build to where yous are today? Yeah. No, not really, to be honest. 27:41 Like, uh, from my perspective, I was kinda done with playing at that time because I'd been on trial. I, I'd finished my uni, which was, like, the height of how much I loved it. I was like, "This is the best thing ever. 27:53 I'm really gonna give it a go," blah, blah, blah. Then I went on trial, didn't work out. I went back home, was going great, then got canceled because of COVID. 28:01 Kept getting canceled over and over and over again, and then it's really difficult to perform when you're playing one game every four weeks as well. So, then I was just thinking, "Oh, this is not gonna happen. 28:10 The people who are watching me are now not interested," et cetera. So, then I just thought, you know, I've, I've never been somebody who is football and nothing else. You know, I was... 28:20 I've never once had a period in my life where I'm only playing football. Like, I went to university whilst playing football full-time, then I came here, football full-time whilst working full-time as well. 28:31 So it wasn't, for me, it wasn't like, "Oh, I've lost everything." It was just like- Football... "Right, cool. I'll just go be a coach instead," you know? 28:37 So at the time, there was no option for me to play football when I came. When I first came, it was like, "I'm just stopping football. I'll play for fun, amateur, whatever, and then I'm gonna coach." 28:48 And then they'd asked me to coach, but also start the scholarship department, basically. So for me, that was an exciting challenge, you know? Mm. It was like, "Cool, that's a great idea. Sounds exciting. 28:57 I'm working in a software sales job at the moment that I have no interest in." 29:01 Um, so yeah, and then when we came, even when we started the third division team, we just said, like, "We have no idea what the standard's gonna be like, but let's see what we can do." And then the kind of real 29:12 catalyst, you could say, is we got Steven Taylor as the manager, who's obviously an ex-Premier League player, and he essentially said, like, "The, the squad we have at the moment is not gonna compete. 29:23 We need to get some, like, older, you know, British guys." 29:26 So then we ended up getting four guys who were similar profile to me, um, whereby they'd played non-league, they played a higher level, they were here as coaches. 29:35 And then we had the five of us, and then mixed in with, like, some super talented African players who were super receptive to kind of our experience, but then were also super talented in terms of, you know, every part of the game, basically. 29:49 But the thing that they didn't have was that tactical awareness, which we could help with, you know? And we ne- didn't necessarily have the same, you know, natural gifts that they had. 29:57 But yeah, so it was a kind of, it was a match made in heaven, basically. So we won division three. Even the, the first year we, we really dominated. 30:04 Like, we, I think we had 13 games and we conceded four goals or something like that. And then, so that team was kinda too good for that, that league, and then when we got promoted to division two, 30:14 again, we had no idea what we were gonna do. Were, are we gonna stay in that league? Is it too difficult? All that type of stuff. 30:20 And one of, I remember one of the coaches of one of the teams who's, uh, still in division two now basically was watching one of our preseason games, and he said to our director of football, like, "There's a probably a high chance you guys are gonna go down this year, just, just to prepare you." 30:34 And then we end up winning the division two as well. [laughs] Uh, so yeah. So then when we went up to division one, again, I had to decide, "Okay, you know, this is gonna get way more serious. 30:45 Do I wanna take that next step? Yes or no?" But they asked me to, so I said, "Why not?" You know, this is my real chance, basically. 30:52 So I would say that year is probably the most seriously I've ever taken football, where I... So let's say when I left uni, for example Bear in mind, I was still full-time at that time. 31:02 When I left uni, I was probably about 92 kg. I'm six foot four, so it's not, it's not heavy, but it wasn't like, you know, absolutely shredded. 31:09 And then Neil Taylor came in, who was the, the new coach for our team, and he was big on, you know, conditioning and being in the right shape and all that type of stuff. 31:17 And basically the professionalism of the club overall just leveled up massively. You know, we were doing analysis every day and things like that. So I just went for it, and I was diligent on what I was eating. 31:27 I was perfect basically in terms of sleep, all that type of stuff. 31:32 Um, so I was, at one point in that league, I was like 86 kilograms, so way below where I was, and that kind of made a massive difference to my performance in terms of like fitness-wise, because I would get to the end of games and you've got to obviously remember the heat here as well. 31:47 Like it's some games are 40 degrees, you know, so you can't really afford to be carrying any extra weight, and there's no real need to be 93 kg, you know, when you're playing because nobody else is gonna be that, that size anyway. 31:58 Yeah. So it's not like you're sacrificing any strength. But yeah, so he was... I developed a lot in that league as well. 32:04 Like again, I was 26, 27 at that time, and, you know, at that, at that age, oftentimes you feel like you, you're where you are. But he kind of... 32:14 We had a bit of friction at the start because he was forcing me to play out every time, wanted me to get it off the goalkeeper. I'm much more of like a typical non-league, you know, knock it forward type of guy. 32:23 But he was like, "Listen, if you're not gonna do it, then you won't play." And it was that simple. And he was just basically forcing me into, you know, 32:30 don't worry about making mistakes, take risks, all that type of stuff, that this is how we're gonna play. And, you know, it was, it started terribly, to be honest. Like I was... I just couldn't get it in my head. 32:39 I was just like, "Why is he forcing me into doing this? It's not the type of player I am," all this type of stuff. 32:44 But at one point I just kind of, uh, accepted it and went for it and, and, yeah, my, my kind of on-ball stuff was massively leveled up after that. Um, and then in that year, I actually... 32:57 There was kind of murmurs about me getting interest from, from the pro league, um, which is the league above. 33:03 Nothing ever came of it, but all the local players were like, four or five of them told me separately like, "By the way, you know, in January you're gonna be signed by Ashman," which is one of the top teams. 33:13 You know, a- again, who knows if it's true or not, but even one of the referees told me, which is a lot of the time how players get scouted here. But yeah, it was, it, it was... 33:20 I was kind of waiting for that to happen, but it didn't. 33:22 But again, I wasn't too bothered because it wasn't like even if they would've offered me, I probably wouldn't have gone because it's like I'm not just a footballer. I've got... 33:29 I'm running, helping run a business here as well, you know, which is- Yeah... that was the more exciting part for me rather than just, you know, being a footballer and... 'Cause you know how it goes, you know. 33:38 I'd, I wouldn't wanna leave something like this, which I'm building, go there for six months, get released, and then suddenly you're like, "Okay, well, what am I doing now?" Yeah. 33:46 And, and it's s- it come, it comes through a lot from everything you've said is, 33:51 and it's important, and it's probably taken into what you do now, but you've obviously performed your best and enjoyed it the most when you're in the right environment. 33:59 As you say, when you've gone to that US college, it's good. The training's good. You're there every day, full-time environment. Get back to the UK and it's stop, start. It's not happening. The rain, it's miserable. 34:09 You're working all day trying to work. It's like switching off from it a bit. 34:13 But then you get back into a good environment and you're loving it again and you're playing, and then a new coach comes in, which once you accept his way, you know, it gives you another level to your game. 34:24 So it just shows you that for everyone, a failure or a moving on from one place to another, it's not the end of the world. It's like you need to find- Yeah... 34:32 what makes you click and, and, and no doubt that's what you've been through it. 34:37 So at golf now, I guess part of your role or part of the role of the pathways and the scholarships is creating the best environment you can for, you know, for these kids to thrive. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 34:48 And it's all like, for me, one of the things, I think I put it on LinkedIn the other day, but one of the main issues that we, like I see with young players is it seems that everybody is now obsessed with the level, what level they're getting at. 34:59 So a lot of them will... 35:00 You know, we even ha- I've had a lot of players who I've worked with before who say, "I'd rather play for, let's say, you know, the A team and be on the bench and never play, instead of being on the B team and actually playing all the, all the games and enjoying it." 35:13 And, and it's like when you have the conversation, it's like, well, what, what are you actually playing for here? 35:17 Is it for like a outside perception to say that you play on the, the X, Y, Z, A team or are you actually playing- Yeah... you know, for fun? 35:24 Because when you're 40, 45 years old, you're gonna look back and think, "Okay, so when I was 15, I literally chose to not play because I thought it was cooler- Yeah... to be on the A team." 35:35 And it's like, and then the players, there's a lot of... It seems like a real problem to me with, with kind of 18, 19, 20-year-olds, where a lot of them who I speak to, I say, "Okay, where were you at last year?" 35:45 You know, if they're trying to come into our club. "Where were you at last year?" "Okay, I was trialing here, then I went and trialed here, and then I trained with this team, then I trained with this team." 35:52 It's like, "Okay, but where did you actually play? You know, which team did you play for?" And there's such a huge number of players now where it's like, "Oh, I didn't play for anyone." 36:00 It's like, well, how can you be 19 and not play for a team? You know? 36:03 And it doesn't matter what level that team is, um, because- This is, this has come up, um, three times in the last week in three conversations, exactly this point of one from, um, a guy who's in Romania, yourself, and I was speaking to someone today in Cambodia who runs a club, and it's a big red flag when a, when a player doesn't have the playing time, it's a red flag for them for a particular reason. 36:29 But you're sort of saying, and I'm wondering where this is coming from, these people that are just trialing in different countries in the world- Yeah... 36:36 are they coming from like an affluent background and they've got the money to spend to just go and do this looking for a big level or are they just chasing a dream that they think is there that's probably not achievable at their level? 36:47 Yeah. It's, it's a bit of a mix, I think. 36:49 And there's obviously those type of kids, but then you've got, I mean, even players who are like in the UK, for example, like I spoke to one yesterday, he's like, "Oh, I've been... 36:57 Was in at, in at this team, then, then I went on trial at this team, then it didn't work out, so I've been trai- I've been training with this team." 37:05 But it's like, so why don't you actually p- go register with a team in, let's say, the league below? And it's like, "Oh, the level's not good enough." And it's like, well, not good enough for what? You know? 37:14 Like, if you're not good enough to be signed by the team above, unfortunately that's your level, the level below, you know? 37:20 And then at that time, you know, what I always think is with players, you know, you, you keep developing, keep developing like that, and you can advance, advance, advance, and then at one point you're gonna hit a ceiling where that's the highest you can go because of X, Y, Z reason. 37:34 Like, for example, for me, I s- my speed let me down massively, you know, in terms of there was... When I used to play, 37:42 let's say, you know, when you'd play with players who are playing at a much higher level, the thing you'd notice the most is, okay, like he's, he's just a bit sharper than I am. 37:50 And it might not be, it's not like I'm very slow compared to him, but it's like if you can put, you know, let's say, let's say my top speed is 32 kilometers. 37:59 If you can put 36 kilometers in me, you know, then suddenly I'm a, I'm a player at a completely different level, and that's just- Yeah... the reality of it, you know? 38:07 So, but it, it doesn't mean that it's like, oh, doomsday for, for... And that's what a lot of young players is like, "Well, like, if I can't play at this level, then I won't play." 38:15 And it's like, well, where, where, where have you got that, you know, that image from? 38:19 Did you not play football as a kid because you enjoyed it, not because of some random level which has just been told to you that that's where you should get to? It's interesting. Yeah. 38:28 That's, that's really interesting because 38:30 also just being part of a team at a young age teaches you to learn from more experienced professionals, see how it works as a, as a, in a team environment, see how a club is run, playing away games in difficult conditions and different- Yeah... 38:45 environments against a 30-year-old proper non-league guy that's gonna kick you and punch you and scratch you. You know what I mean? Like, it's not fun, but it's part of, it's part of the journey sometimes. Yeah, 100%. 38:56 And that's like even my two, my two unis. If I would've got to my second university as an 18-year-old, I wouldn't have played there because just standards-wise it was... 39:07 It wasn't necessarily talent-wise the players were much better, but they were so much more dedicated than the ones at my first year where we would get to the... 39:15 We'd show up at the, my second uni, Furman, for example, and the fitness tests were very difficult, and if you can't pass them, you don't train until you can. 39:23 That type of stuff is, you know, that's a ruthless environment, but that's, that's how it is at the top level, you know? And I'm not saying University Division 1 is the top level, but it's a very serious environment. 39:33 You know, you have to be up at 5:30 AM to go to s- to gym sessions, and then you're expected to get good grades in your classes all day because that's what you're here for, and that's constantly, you know, reiterated into you and all that type of stuff. 39:45 Like, the fitness test that we did at Furman was you had to do two miles in... And this was before any training started, so you had to pass to, to be able to train. 39:54 So two miles in 12 minutes, then you rest for five minutes, and then the third mile had to be in 5:45, and it was on a track. So y- you've basically three miles in 17:45, and then everything was ranked. 40:09 So you'd get into the, the changing room, and you've got from 1 to 29, or however many it is, in terms of your scores. 40:16 And then you would do the, your physical scores, press-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, all that type of stuff, all the, the jumps and all that type of stuff, and everything's ranked. You know? 40:25 So you're looking at it and you're thinking, okay, you know, like if I would've got... 40:30 Uh, I actually did an exercise where I did it with my, um, my under 18s team when I got here, and the guy that won, for example, the two-mile test, got 11:58. 40:39 And I said to him, "If you would've got 11:58 at my university, then you would've came 26th out of 29, and you just won here." And that's, that's the, that's the reality of it, you know? 40:51 So a lot of players will be in an environment where they think, "Oh, I can play at X level." 40:55 And it's like, well, you actually have no idea because you've never even been exposed to those type of people, let alone the level itself. And not even to medal like that. 41:04 That's, yeah, it's, it's being in that, and that's where, I guess, taking these opportunities where you have to move to a new country, see a new environment, see a new level, and try and fit into that on one hand, but at the same time try and manage things off the field because you're in a new country, a new culture, potentially a new language. 41:21 You know, different currencies to worry about, tax to worry about, family to worry about. Like, there's a lot that goes into it playing overseas and, and moving around. 41:29 So when you have these conversations now, like in, in your role you've got a young player coming in or a young player that wants to come in, what are the sort of conversations that you're having with them and potentially their family around, you know, the pathway ahead from day one when they come to, to Gulf? 41:46 Yeah. 41:46 So I mean, one of the unique things that we have as a club is basically, as I said, we have the program where it's like they come in and they'll start with the B team, which is playing in UA Division 2, which is already a very high level. 41:57 It's definitely higher than what the vast majority of them have played before they've arrived. But then you've got above that is the first team. 42:03 So should a player be really talented, they will be moved up to the first team quite fast, whether that's just for training or whether that's to actually compete. 42:11 Like, we had a kid from Zambia this year called Emmanuel Motale. 42:15 He came in, he was on the under 21s at first for one session, then he moved to the first team, then he scored eight goals in his first 10 games in the first division. 42:24 You know, and then suddenly in the January transfer window, everybody wants him, everybody's coming to watch him, et cetera, et cetera. 42:30 We were able to hold onto him but, you know, we're obviously hoping that the interest is there at the end of the season that, that he can move on. But the qu- the... 42:38 A lot of the time I say to the parents and the k- and the, "Just because that first team's there doesn't mean that that's what you're... That shouldn't be a question for you at the moment. 42:46 You know, you're not even here yet. You don't need to ask about, you know, how do I get into the first team because you need to worry about getting and playing minutes in the B team first." You know, and if you... 42:56 I always feel like that with young players. If your focus is too far ahead, you're always gonna lose sight of what's actually in front of you. 43:03 You know, because you might think that you're You're good enough to play for the first team, but again, you might be sat in Hong Kong or Ireland or anywhere and, you know, you're playing with an under age, under 18s team in that place, and you see the videos of our team online and you think, "Okay, I could play there." 43:19 But also sometimes you'll watch Premier League players make mistakes and say, "How has he done that?" 43:23 You know, and then you get on the pitch, and if you were on that pitch as a normal person, you wouldn't even be able to track the ball because your eyes won't even move fast enough. 43:30 [laughs] So it's one of those things where it's just about letting the players know that this, the main thing about our program is that it's a development environment. 43:38 You know, it's giving players to that exposure, not only to be seen and scouted and things like that, but most of all to the exposure to an actual professional environment. So they are training every day. 43:48 They are doing S&C, which is structured to their needs. They are doing analysis. 43:52 They are having individual development plan meetings with the coaches, things like that, you know, which it just doesn't exist until you get to the professional level. So it's a really cool program that we've got, 44:02 but of course comes with its challenges as well because a lot of players think they're at a certain level, and then they arrive, and then they see the play... 44:09 'Cause some of our players are youth national team players, for example, and they'll come in and, and they'll instantly be ready to play. 44:15 Other players are gifted, you know, naturally, but they take a long time or they take a few months, you know, to adapt to the level. 44:22 But again, when they get to the end of the year, they say, "Okay, well, you know, I'm a lot closer to where I wanna be now than I was at the start of the year." Yeah. 44:28 "Because I didn't actually know what it took at the start of the year." And do you, do you find with, 'cause y- y- you've sort of said it with a lot of the young kids you come across, but are there... 44:38 Like, can you pick up quite quickly within a few weeks, all right, this guy is gonna do whatever it takes, like we can tell he's gonna sacrifice everything to do it, and the ones that are, you've come in and you're like, "This guy's not gonna last"? 44:50 And then what do those conversations look like? Do you have to have difficult conversations with people, or have they paid a fee and they're there for a year no matter what? Yeah. 44:58 Yeah, so they do pay a fee to cover their cost basically for the club. But we've actually been lucky in, in the sense that a lot of the... We have quite extensive conversations with them before they come. 45:09 So we set out the, you know, the, the expectations and the standards and things like that. 45:14 And a lot of the ti- like, again, one of the main things, for example, is I'll say to the player, "If you come on this program and you pass the fitness test at the start of the season, you will be registered to play for Gulf United, which means you're eligible to be selected for the, the matchdays. 45:29 However, this program is not like a, a pay-to-play where you're guaranteed a certain amount of minutes." 45:35 The fee that the player's paying is just to cover their o- their cost for the club, basically, and then it runs exactly like a professional club. So should they be late, 45:45 a lot of the time they'll, they'll be running, for example, or they won't be, uh, invited to matchday squads and that type of stuff. 45:51 But if they're doing well, you know, and they, they have good standards and they're showing good attitude and things like that, then, you know, it, it benefits them. But the conversations are... 45:59 You know, of course sometimes we have to, you know, bring players down a notch and say, "You know, you can't be missing training. You can't be doing this, you can't be doing that," et cetera. 46:07 And if you are and you, you continue to, you know, basically fall below the standard, then yeah, most of the time in that situation it would be they would leave after half a season. 46:16 But again, thankfully, it's never happened, and because a lot of the time the players and the parents are, they're on the right, you know, wavelength with us because we have... 46:26 Like for example, we've been speaking for almost an hour. We have these conversations three or four times before they arrive. So you really get to see what type of player and person they are and what- Yeah... 46:34 type of family they come from. That's what I was gonna say. It's, it's that, um, progression of understanding, yeah, what's required along the way and the preparation. Not just from you, but from them. 46:46 This was another conversation that happened today, was you interviewing them, but them interviewing you at the same time. 46:51 I think that's important for people as well to not just wanna jump at the chance at taking the first deal or the first opportunity they get, is to get a real good understanding of who's Jack, who's Gulf, what's involved, and is it actually gonna suit me? 47:04 And it's okay to say no. Yeah. It's okay to be like, "You know what? This is doesn't feel like the right fit." 47:09 Um, but I think that's really good that you do sort of four or five calls for both ends, you know, to, to get a really... So when they turn up on day one, as you say, you've probably got a, a 90, 95% retention rate. 47:21 Exactly, yeah. And it's like one of those, uh... 47:24 I agree 100% in terms of they, you need to be doing your due di- due diligence when you're, you know, looking at, especially if you're going to a different country because I speak to so many players, and unfortunately at the moment online there's a lot of scammers. 47:37 And I spoke to a player, you know, a few days ago where I said to him, 'cause he said to me, "Okay, I've been contacted by this guy. He said he's got a direct line to this club," blah, blah, blah. 47:46 "Do you think it's real?" And I called him basically and I said, "Listen, you know, you have to think realistically from an objective perspective about your level. You've never played anywhere. 47:56 You know, you're, you're an amateur player. You've played at high school. You've just finished school. Why would a club in the UAE be contacting you for a trial 48:06 and to, and asking you to pay a fee to come over and trial because we know about you?" You know, you... This kid was in the US, you know, and he said, "Oh, I didn't think about that." But that's one of the main things. 48:16 It's like you've gotta, a lot of the way that, that young players I think can have a better opti- better opportunity for themselves in the future is you have to try to detach y- your own judgment of yourself and your own bias from the situation and say, "Okay, if I actually write down my profile, like where have I played, what's the highest level I've played, have I ever been paid to play, et cetera, all this type of stuff, what type of player am I on a world stage?" 48:40 Because, for example, for me at 17 or 18, I was playing for a reserve team of a non-league team in Manchester who nobody's ever heard of, you know? So therefore, you know, and a lot... 48:51 Again, my parents would've, would've picked up on it because they would've said, "Why would he, why would this guy in a different country wanna take you? You're not even playing any level." 48:59 But a lot of the time pe- uh, people's parents don't have any concept of what's, what's real and what's not in the football world because they've never been exposed to it, you know? 49:06 So they know, the- these people who try to do this, you know, dodgy stuff, they know that the players are vulnerable or they know they're desperate. 49:12 But it's, it's something that players need to be really, really careful of because, um- A lot of the time it's, it's, it's, you know, exciting to get a message like that. You know, "We've found you." 49:23 You know, "We've b- we've seen you playing," et cetera. But the reality is, it's like, if it's, if it's a development program where it's, uh, fees need paying, maybe that's real. 49:33 Where it's like, "Okay, we've, we've scouted somebody from your team last year. We know that you're... This team is a good level. We know," blah, blah, blah, all this type of stuff. That's, that could be real. 49:42 But if it's something where it's like, you know, "We've got you a direct link to this club. 49:47 They've asked for us to contact you and for you to pay us this and that," and all this type of stuff, it's just one of those things where it's like, it's just not gonna happen. And of course, 49:56 it's a difficult one because there's a lot of agents out there now. But the reality is, no real agent's gonna be trying to take, you know, a payment off you from a cl- for a club. 50:07 You know, if a club needs a payment for X, Y, Z, if they need a payment for your accommodation or your food or whatever, they will be taking that payment directly to them. 50:15 They won't be taking it through some random guy who doesn't even have their logo or name or anything, you know, attached to him. Do you see that quite a lot then? You see more and more of that now? Yeah, a lot. 50:27 And, and even for us as a club, it's really difficult because, you know, you might get a player who's, who's speaking with a, a person who claims to be from our club, for example, who's asking for money, but there's no way of us tracking that person, finding what, who they are, finding where they are. 50:43 And even if we do find them, let's say for example, there's someone in Zambia or whatever, you know, there's nothing we can do. 50:50 We can't contact the police in Zambia and say, "Oh, this guy's pretending to be Gulf United." It's just, doesn't, it- they're just gonna be like, "Okay," you know, "Thanks." 50:57 You know, so it's one of those things where it's, 51:00 the onus is on the players to do the research and to, to make sure, especially when payments come into things, because obviously it always ends with a payment with these, these kinda scammers. They, they just need to... 51:10 A lot of the time they end up contacting me and they'll ask me, you know? 51:13 So that's why I try to be quite visible on LinkedIn as well, because it's like, if somebody knows that there's someone from the actual club, then they can contact me and I'll just say straight away, "No, it's, it's a scam," basically. 51:24 Report it. Report it to the police, all that type of stuff. 51:26 But yeah, it's not just our club, it's, it's, you know, the one I spoke to yesterday in the US was from a different club in the UAE, which I would know 100% is not charging for trials, which is why I said to him like, "They don't have any paid trials." 51:39 You know, this is a big club, it doesn't work like that. But I've seen it with Premier League clubs as well. 51:44 Players have sent me a letter with like a Premier League club saying, "We're inviting you," with their name, "to come on trial," blah, blah, blah. And it's like, again, why would they invite you to come on trial? 51:55 You know, you're just a, a random kid in, in a random country to them. Yeah. Yeah, no, I know it's, uh, it's definitely more prevalent, I think, and it, it's hard. 52:03 Like, you don't wanna give agents a bad name because they do such a good job- Of course, yeah... when they're a good agent. 52:08 But it's, it's hard that there's so, it's a shame, you know, that there's so many bad ones that, that spoil it for the good ones in a way. Do yous work with many sort of trusted agents in and around the region now? 52:19 Yeah, yeah, we do. We've got a lot, like- Yeah... we've got quite a big network of agents. But again, you know, we work with basically two types of agent. 52:28 We work with, obviously, FIFA licensed agents, and then we also work with kind of agents who are more on the, 52:35 let's say, the, the more foundational side, where they'll have relationships with schools, specific schools and clubs and that type of thing, where they're not agents to find people pro contracts. 52:45 They're agents to find young players opportunities. But again, you know, none of our agents would ever accept a payment on our behalf, because why would they? You know, it doesn't... 52:54 So again, it's one of those things where it's like the agent's job is to pass the contact of the person to, to the club. That's it. You know, to link them with them, to send them the highlight tape, whatever it is. 53:04 Of course, when it comes to negotiating pro deals, agents are a must, basically. You know, you can't really do it on your own anymore. 53:12 But yeah, the truth is, it's not, it's not agents, it's just people who say that they're an agent, which is a, the fraud in, in its, in itself, basically. Yeah. Yeah, no, I know. 53:21 It's a shame that so many people get caught up in it. Um- Yeah, yeah... and then on to sort of, you know, where you're at now. 53:28 Outside of obviously what's happening in the Middle East at the moment, but in regards to the UAE and football in general, it's obviously growing- Yeah... year on year on year. How are things looking? 53:37 Like, what's the market like over there? How good is the, the pro league, League One, League Two, in regards to opportunities? Do you think it's a great place for, for people to come and, and have a look at? Yeah. 53:48 I mean, one of the things about, which is really unique about this place is the fact that it's, it's really new. You know? 53:54 So if you look at, for example, if you look at the UK, when you arrive from a different place in the UK, let's say you're a student who's at university and you're looking for a, a non-league club. 54:05 The first thing that they're gonna ask you is, "Where have you played before?" 54:08 And then you start listing these teams that they don't know and they're gonna be like, "Okay," like, "We d- we don't wanna see you," kind of thing. 54:14 And that's the situation in most countries because they've been around for so long and there's such a large pool of players that, you know, everybody knows all the players. 54:22 And if they don't know the players, they'll know the coach who's been at the team that you were at before, et cetera. So that's that tight network. 54:28 Whereas here, because it's kind of just starting in the grand scheme of things, like 2020 was the first private club, the first private league I should say, which was Division 2 and Division 3, which are UAFA leagues, but they're all private clubs. 54:41 So anybody can have a team basically, as long as they get approved. So 54:46 since then, there's been, you know, hundreds of players who've been registered who have never played anywhere before because all these clubs need to host tryouts, you know? 54:54 When, because how else are they gonna find players? You know, it's not like they're gonna be brick flying players in. 55:00 So they'll literally, and most of the clubs in Division 3, for example, will say July 15th or August 1st, whatever, we're hosting the tryouts. And anybody can show up, and then there's your chance there and then. 55:10 You know, and you don't, one of the main things as well, as well about the leagues is you don't need any specific visa. So you don't have to be on a work visa to, to, to play. 55:17 You can, you can be, uh, you can arrive on holiday and register [chuckles] the next day. You know, that's just the reality of it, as long as you pass your FIFA medical and things like that. 55:25 And of course, in order to stay in the country, you need to get your residency. But I mean, in terms of the barriers to entry to, to register in the league- That's a big problem in Europe. 55:35 Like if you're, let's say, again, a kid from somewhere in Africa or even the US or Canada or anywhere like that, somewhere outside the EU, you know, good luck trying to sign a pro deal in Spain. 55:46 If you've never played for your, you know, your national team, it's genuinely almost impossible, basically. Same thing in most countries. Yeah, I've seen that with the, the UK. 55:54 We had a few players leave Australia last year. 55:56 They, they had sort of like offers or, or chats around, you know, potentially getting a deal in the UK, lower leagues, but no passport, no parents that had the passport, sort of less like that. 56:06 They've either played, I think it was five games for a national team or five games in the A-League in Australia. There's basically no chance of that happening and I, and I'm pretty sure most of Europe's the same. 56:15 Yeah, exactly. And it's like one of those where it's like, you know, how difficult is that, [laughs] you know, to get five senior national team caps is so difficult, and it's like, you know, so what chance have you got? 56:28 Whereas, you know, if you get here, you have a direct line to the leagues above. You know, everybody... 56:34 When I first came, everyone was saying to me, you know, like I would play, let's say, five-a-side with some local players. They would say, "Oh, you need to be playing Division One." That was when I was in Division Three. 56:43 And at the time they'd say, "Oh, but they don't, you know, they don't take foreign players, and if they do, you know, they're, they're coming from specific agents." Whereas now, 56:52 because the league is established, it's been five years, six years, whatever, since Division Three and Two started, every time there's one of the best players in Division Two, let's say the top scorer usually will be in Division One the next year. 57:04 You know, the best, the best, you know, young players. It's always about young players here. You know, they like young players a lot. So if there's a player who's, let's say, 57:13 let's say for example, we had two players who are born in the UAE but not passport holders or anything like that, they've both been called up for the UAE national team now under 20s after playing with us because they count as local players. 57:25 But again, if you're coming from anywhere in the world and you're 18 years old and you're, you kill it in Division Two for our division, for our B team, you know, you're gonna be signed by somebody in Division One or pro league or even one of the pro leagues under 21s or under 23s teams and things like that. 57:39 There's massive, massive opportunity here, and the reason for that is because it, it's very new, so they're always looking. So the s- the... And, you know, the country's very small as well, so get the scouts everywhere. 57:50 If you're a top player in Division Three, for example, everybody knows who you are. When it gets to November, you'll be called into trial with Division One teams, then in January they'll sign you, et cetera. 58:00 So again, like I was playing in Division One, I would recognize loads of players who were, who I was playing last year in Division Two, you know, and it's like, "Oh, how did you get here?" 58:08 It's, it's the same way I, I got there, you know? I just, just went up with a team or somebody selected me and, and went up. And there's a lot of the players, there's actually four players I was playing with... 58:18 or not playing with, playing against in Division Three, who are now in the pro league. But a- again, all of them were very young when they were playing. 58:24 They were 18, 19 when they were playing Division Three, and they've just gone to Division Two, then got signed in Division One, and then gone to the pro league with the team 'cause they got promoted. 58:32 But yeah, so there's, there's huge opportunity. And that's, um, huge opportunity and also I think, um, if young kids can realize that it takes time. Really. You know, you're not... 58:41 Some, some will go from 18, they might be exceptional and play in the pro league, but for others it might be, look, you're gonna have to do the three to five-year journey of playing League Three, League Two, improving this, improving that, play against better players, you know, just grow physically, mentally. 58:56 But I think as well a lot of people, they're not willing to make that sacrifice of a three to five year, you know, hard work or, or dedication to try and get somewhere where they think maybe in their head they should already be. 59:06 Yeah. And, and that's kinda one of the unique things that we've got because let's say, for example, we had two players last year who were... Like last year from our under 21s, we had 10 players play up to the first team. 59:18 But we had two who were consistent with us. But when they first arrived, they were... One of them was actually living in Australia actually, but he plays for New Zealand under 20s now. 59:28 But when they first arrived, they were, they were coming with our 20 B team. So they were playing their games for them. 59:34 Then they started to train with the first team, then they s- got exposed to the first team there and then at that time. 59:39 So at that time, you get put into the, the first team environment, and then it's sink or swim at that point. And if you, if you, you know, if you swim, basically, then you're there. That's your level now. 59:50 You know, because if you're playing every game when you're 19 years old, then suddenly if that team doesn't sign you, then all the other clubs are gonna say, "Wait a second. Is that guy 19? 59:59 He's playing all the games in this league." So someone will have a look at you, and then you've s- you've kind of bunny hopped the, the leagues below. 1:00:06 Whereas if you're playing for a club where their first team is Division Three or their first team is Division Two, not only will it be a more difficult, uh, situation in terms of infrastructure wise, 'cause obviously they're a less established club, it'll also be much harder for you to jump those levels because you don't have exposure to that level there and then. 1:00:24 You know, for us now, if we even have a hint of a player being good enough to play with our first team, they'll be moved into the, to training at least. And then again, sink or swim. 1:00:34 You know, you get there, some players will arrive and they'll be... The, the coach will say like, "It's too early. Like, he's too shy. He's not even asking for the ball," et cetera, et cetera. 1:00:43 And others will get there and they'll say, you know, "Wow, like why has this kid not been here earlier?" So it's... 1:00:49 When you get up there, that's a big thing as well, the mentality of can you maintain that confidence when you go up that next level. Yeah. 1:00:56 No, it is, it is very important, the mental side of it, and I guess having that confidence and belief in yourself, but then delivering on it as well at a, at a higher level, um, you know, on a week-to-week basis. 1:01:06 But as you say, it's good to know that there's huge opportunity there, and with that, to give us a rough idea, in the pro league, and just say League One, what, what could a, like a decent player in the teams be earning now on a, say a monthly basis in the UAE? 1:01:20 Yeah. So there's, there's massive variance. That, that's the main context. So 1:01:26 pro league, there's, there's some, there's a lot of big earners in the pro league basically, because, you know, you've got guys who have come in from the Premier League, come in from LaLiga, things like that. 1:01:35 So I think usually the top earner of the league will be making a few million euros, dollars, whatever, a year. And then you've got... But bear in mind there's no tax obviously. And then you've got- 1:01:47 In the, in Division One, the top earners are probably making 30, $40,000 a month, something like that. But again, those are the top, let's say, four or five players. 1:01:57 And then you've got the ones below that who are probably making... The top, you know, the good players on, on the teams are making between, let's say, 10 and $15,000. 1:02:07 And then all the way down to, you know, a young player who's just been given an opportunity, basically, who might just be getting food, housing, and a bit of salary on the side. But it depends on the club. 1:02:17 That's the reality. Because if there's a club who wants to get promoted and they're willing to invest... 1:02:22 Like for example, Andre Perlo is a manager in, in Division One, you know, so whatever he's on, it's not gonna be small. But [laughs] you know. But yeah. 1:02:30 And, but then you've also got, you know, clubs like ourself, like we are not big payers at all. We, we, we don't have any ability to... 1:02:38 Because there, there's no real revenue model in this country from, directly from the football. There's no shirt sales or there's no F&B at the games. I mean, for, for a lower level club. 1:02:48 When you get to the Pro League- Yeah... of course, they're on TV and all that type of stuff. Um, but yeah. So it's, it's one of those things where it's very, very varied between the clubs. 1:02:58 But it's a, um, you want people to think of it as a, potentially a stepping stone to get into a league, get in a good environment, play as much football as they can, and see what opportunities sort of open up for them when they're hopefully ready to go. 1:03:11 Exactly. And, and the thing is, it, it just about giving them legitimacy as well. Because, again, if you're in the UK and you're playing like sixth, seventh tier, it's a very, very good level. 1:03:22 But, you know, on a worldwide level, everybody's gonna be like, "Sixth division?" Like, you know, what... No, no top, top division club is gonna take you from anywhere in the world, basically. 1:03:31 Whereas if you're playing, you know, UAE Division One and you, your highlight tape is all in stadiums and you're playing against these big players and on this big stage in these, in these, like, amazing situations, basically, um, then suddenly it becomes possible for that next move. 1:03:46 So yeah, it's definitely a stepping stone. It's a big platform because the eyes of the Asia are, are on Dubai as well. There's always people in it. 1:03:53 Not even just Asia, you know, even in terms of, for us as a club, we always have a lot of big names down at the club. You know, like we had Iniesta coaching, guest coaching our- Yeah, I saw that... 1:04:03 our players on the program a few weeks ago. 1:04:05 So it's like, that type of thing is like, you know, if he, if he sees a player and he likes a player, it's not, it's not difficult for him to make something happen for that player. Yeah. 1:04:13 And we've, we always have a lot of, of big names around the club. Amazing. Amazing. That's fantastic. I, I really appreciate your time. 1:04:20 And, and I'll finish off, I try and finish with this type of question to everyone to get an idea of- [laughs]... the 17-year-old version of you if you were leaving the UK next week. 1:04:29 What do you know now that you wish you knew then? That's a good one. I think one of my, one of the things I would say now I'm done playing is I spent a lot of time being frustrated that I wasn't, 1:04:41 you know, better than I was. So for example, if I had a bad session or if I wasn't performing as well as I wanted to be or whatever, there was a, a long period of my, of my... 1:04:52 A big period of my, you know, football, I should say, where I was always frustrated with myself because after every game I'd think, "Ah." 1:04:59 You know, people would be telling me I'd played well, but it's like, yeah, but I made that one mistake or I did this or I did that. So my advice would be just like, it's a process. 1:05:07 Just let it happen kinda thing, because s- it always feels like this is the time I have to make it, um, or this is the time where things need to go perfectly, but it almost never is. You know, you might... 1:05:19 And a lot of the time when, uh, a lot of the time when you think it's not the time when it needs to happen and you're just playing easy and you, you're just going as normal, then suddenly there's somebody in the stands who's watched that game. 1:05:30 You weren't thinking about anything and, and you performed your best. So I would just say just trust the process, as cliche as it sounds. Just don't, don't be so hung up on every single moment, basically. 1:05:40 It's, um, re- it's funny you say that because the last guest I spoke to today, who's played in five countries, plays for his national team, and his one was, it's okay not to be perfect, for those exact reasons. 1:05:52 You're gonna have a bad day. It, it's okay. Move on. You know, Monday was terrible. Go out and do something else. Play golf, go for dinner, get your mind away from it, and come back in on Tuesday and start again. 1:06:03 And, and the more I thought about it, the more I was like, yeah, you know what? It's, that's a good bit of advice. And that, that's two in a row. Two in a row. Yeah. Well done. Yeah. 1:06:11 I mean, like what, like what he just said, you know, your, your other guest, the worst place you can be is stuck in your head. 1:06:18 Because if you're obsessed with your M- your Monday performance, then your Tuesday performance is also gonna be terrible, unless you can somehow get out of that before the next session. And it, that's just a cycle. 1:06:29 And, and, and some players are the opposite. 1:06:31 You know, like nothing affects them, whether they play well, whether they play bad, whatever, nothing affects them, and they just crack on and, and those are often the players who get to the highest level. 1:06:41 And just on that, quickly before I let you go, do you have anyone in place? Like do you have, or do you guys act as the people you want the players to talk to? 1:06:48 Or do they have someone they can talk to if they do feel like they need to talk through it, you know, to work out these mental... For mental performance in a way? Yeah. Yeah. 1:06:57 We have, basically what we'll have is we have an individual development coach. 1:07:02 So every two weeks, all of the players on the program will meet with a coach where they'll basically be sat down, going through their performances, going through how they're finding everything, what they're struggling with, what they're doing well with, et cetera. 1:07:15 Mm-hmm. So that will be a combination of the mental side, but also, uh, an analysis of performance on the pitch. 1:07:21 So that'll be with the GPS data, and that'll be with the, you know, minutes and, and stats and all that type of stuff. But then there'll be an element of, you know, how's everything going? What are you struggling with? 1:07:30 Do you need any help with anything? Et cetera. Yeah, I think sometime, like in the past, we've tried, you know, in p- in previous years, we've tried to just say, you know, "X person is there if you need to talk." 1:07:41 But when you've got young lads who are 18, 19, a lot of the time they're just like, "Nah." 1:07:46 You know, even if they're struggling with something, it's hard to get them to, you know, open up and, and voluntarily go and do it. 1:07:51 Whereas if you have those structured conversations, a lot of the time it will come out, you know, because you might be discussing, oh, striker, you've not scored in the last two months. 1:08:01 And then they'll be say, and then they'll say, "Oh, it's because X, Y, Z." You know, "It's because I'm feeling like this," or, "It's because this guy said this to me," or, "It's because this is happening at home." 1:08:10 So there's those structured con- conversations of having that regularity and even if they are struggling with something, knowing that, okay, in, let's say 10 days, I've, I've got my next meeting, so I'm gonna raise it then. 1:08:21 Makes it a lot easier for them, I think. 1:08:23 I think that, yeah, I was just gonna say, I think that continuity and, and the, the time of building trust, like if you and I spoke every two weeks, you know, in six months' time, I'd be more, more comfortable, I guess, sharing a lot more information with you rather than walking into a room to someone that's sitting with a notebook, like, uh, you know, that you don't really know, you don't feel like you can open up to. 1:08:42 So- Yeah... it probably helps a lot. Yeah, 100%. And it's difficult, you know, because you don't want it to be somebody who's gonna affect whether they play or not as well. 'Cause you don't want someone... 1:08:53 You know, you don't want your m- your head coach coming to you and saying, "Oh, are you struggling with anything mentally?" 1:08:57 And you say, "Ah, you know, every time the game comes, I just feel like I'm gonna be terrible that game." 1:09:02 And then, 'cause then suddenly that coach is gonna think, "Hmm, okay, so, you know, is this the, the right guy to play?" So also that's another element which you have to deal with as a club. 1:09:11 It has to be somebody who's a little bit removed from the football decisions, but also is connected to the player on a personal level, like you just said. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. 1:09:20 Well, mate, thank you very, very much for your time. I really appreciate it. And, um- No worries. You too... I'll be over again in maybe about August. 1:09:27 So I, I met Connor, I met your mum last time, and this time we'll- Yeah... we'll come over and meet face to face. Sounds good. Sounds good. All right, mate. Brilliant. Talk later. Take care. Thanks very much. Bye-bye.
