Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] In today's episode of The Overseas Athlete, we welcome Patrick Flottman to the show. 0:05 Patrick has a great story, and what really stands out is his ability to take risks, sometimes calculated risks, looking for that reward for being a professional footballer. 0:18 He left the comforts of Sydney FC, where even though he was released as a youth team player, he could have easily stayed around in the country, but decided to take a leap of faith and join the team in the second division of Thailand to get some full-time football. 0:32 That decision turned out to be a good one, with Sydney FC calling about eight months later and signing him to his first team squad. 0:40 After winning the championship there, but struggling for game time, he took a loan deal to Brisbane, then moved to India and is now playing in Korea. 0:49 All these times that we're going around and, and looking at what he does, you can see that he's always looking at taking risks, which I guess you have to do in this industry to chase that dream of being a full-time professional. 1:00 He also talks about the challenges of being basically unemployed as a footballer for 12 months, which means no money coming in, and how he kept his motivation and training regime up, waiting for that next deal to come along. 1:14 Fantastic story from Patrick, very interesting, and I hope you enjoy. Good afternoon, Patrick. Thank you very much for joining The Overseas Athlete. Thank you. Cheers. Thanks for having me. No problem. 1:27 Yeah, quite excited about this one, to be honest. I know that you've been to, well, three or four different countries now to chase your football dream, so we'll dive into that. 1:35 But just to get you-- get us started, if you could just let everyone know wh- where you initially you came from, like from a, a football point of view, and, and where you currently are and, and playing. Yeah. 1:45 So, um, I grew up in Sydney in a little town called West Pymble. Um, started playing there with my juniors and then, uh, I went through to Blacktown City, and from there went on through to Sydney. Um, 1:59 and I was in the youth team there, and then I actually, uh, had a few s- kind of sniffs in training with the first team, but I never made it through, so I actually ended up going over to Thailand. 2:08 Um, and I played about a half a season, season over there. Then I came back, uh, to Sydney with the first team, um, for a couple of seasons, um, 2:19 before going on loan for a little stint with Brisbane, and then off to India, and now I'm over in Korea with Seongnam FC. Wow. So you've seen, you've seen a fair bit in, in a couple of years. 2:33 Yeah, I know, for a, for a short career that I've had so far, which is, which has been good. I've, I've been able to see quite a lot. And how, um... Well, I mean, there's loads of countries to talk about there. 2:43 We'll start at the beginning. Leaving Sydney to go to Thailand, how did that come about? Were you-- You said you were in the youth team at Sydney or, and just not, not getting a run? Yeah. 2:52 Yeah, so I s- I spent, um, three years with the, with the youth team at Sydney, and we had a pretty good run, um, as a youth team there. 2:58 We ended up winning the NPL 2 the first year we were, we were in it, um, and the NYL as well. Um, and it was at a time when the first team was having really good suc-success as well. 3:10 Um, I think they won the double or the, or the treble even one of those years. Um, so it was a bit hard to, to break into the first team at the time. Um, and so, uh, once my youth team, um, 3:24 time had finished up, 'cause obviously you could only play till you're 21, um, I wasn't really too sure what I was gonna do. Um, 3:31 and the club actually had approached me at the time, the CEO, Danny Townsend, um, who knew a guy, Dave Mitchell, 3:39 an ex-Socceroo, really nice, really nice bloke, Dave, legend, and he, um, had a contact over in Thailand and said, "Look, do you wanna go and check it out?" 3:48 He said, um, "You know, I know it might not sound too fancy or whatever, it was the second division in Thailand. 3:54 There's a team there, um, but I know the, the coach and, and the technical director are looking for a player," et cetera. Um, yeah, and, and to be honest, at the start, I was kind of a bit wary going, 4:06 "I don't know, like, second division in Thailand. I... Maybe I'm better off waiting or going back to the NPL and, and playing a year." But in the end, I thought, "You know, 4:16 I've got nothing to lose," so I went over for, for a week's trial. Um, and still even after that trial, they, they said, um, that "We want you," but I was still a bit kinda not too sure. 4:27 And luckily, um, technical director at the time and the coach, they let me come back to Australia and speak to mom and dad and my family about it. 4:35 And, uh, I think the next day after I got back from Australia, I called them back and said, "All right, let's do it. I'm just gonna give it a crack." And I'm really glad I did 'cause it was, it was awesome. Yeah. 4:47 What were the, um... You can imagine. What, how old were you then? You just turned 21? Yeah, I'd, I'd just been 21. Yeah. So what were the, what were the main concerns you had with, with, I suppose, going to Thailand? 4:58 Was it more so it was the, the division two side of it, hoping that you'd obviously, you know, be progressing to the A-League, but having to take maybe a backward step to go forward again? Definitely. 5:08 That was, that was definitely a part of it. 5:10 Um, I, I'd had a little bit of experience in Asia, um, with the youth teams, with the, with the young Socceroos and whatnot, um, just to see what it's about traveling, but you don't actually get to see what the leagues are like. 5:21 You obviously see the- Mm.... the national teams and whatnot. Um, but I hadn't had any experience with any of the leagues over in, in Southeast Asia. 5:29 And I think especially knowing it was the second division and hoping, like you said, that I was, you know, aiming for the A-League, I was thinking, "Oh, maybe it's too big a, a drop down or, or whatever." 5:38 Um, but much to my surprise, you know, the league over there is, it probably is a little bit lower than the, the A-League standard, but it's still a good standard, and it's, it's a different style of football, and it's really not easy to adjust to. 5:51 Um, I was really lucky when I went over. I had a guy in my team, a, a Kiwi guy, um, Kane Vincent, 5:58 who spent a lot of his career in, in Asia, and he was-I think he's maybe nine or 10 years older than me, and he was really helpful to be able to guide me in my time there. 6:07 Um, because, you know, at, at the time, looking back, [chuckles] 6:11 I, I was only 21, you don't really know what you're kinda getting yourself into, and, and really thinking back now as a 21-year-old, you don't see many 21-year-old foreign players in those Asian leagues, especially in my position as a center half. 6:24 Um, so considering that, I, I was really lucky to, to get that opportunity. Um, and yeah, it was just an eye-opener. I learned a lot of things over there. It was really good. Yeah. I bet you did. 6:36 And it, it's interesting that the, the opportunity came up from, from the club, like through Sydney FC and the, and the CEO. 6:43 Um, I wouldn't ima- I don't know, but I wouldn't imagine that would happen too often if you've come to an end of a deal, you know, you might... 6:50 You do think, or I suppose the assumption is that it's an agent that drives it for you or, or players are looking for it themselves. It's, it's good to hear that that's where it came from. Yeah. 6:58 It, it was, it was kind of, um, interesting as well for me at the time, but it was really good in the sense that they were, they were looking to, to help me, um, as well, because they kinda said, "Look, um, we like you as a, as a player and whatnot, but we, we don't really have, um, much room for you. 7:14 You know, the first team, we're doing really well. Um, there's not really much spot, so we're gonna try and do what we can to try and help you, um, I suppose, so you don't just kind of go off the radar." Um, 7:27 and yeah, luckily they, they had a f- few contacts and, and through Dave, um, he was able to help me to, to get over there and, and continue my career, because to be honest, if I didn't go over there and, and I, and I went back to the NPL, I might not be where I am now today, so. 7:44 Yeah. And it's, um, no doubt they were difficult conversations to hear when, when Sydney pull you in and just sort of say, you know, "Thank you, but, but we don't have a spot for you in the first team." Yeah. Yeah. 7:56 For sure. And I mean, that, it... that's all a part of football really, and as you, as you get older and whatnot and, and you experience all that stuff, you realize that's just a part of it. Um- Mm.... 8:05 and I guess the only thing you can do i- is kind of move on, accept it, move on, and, and you just gotta keep working and keep pushing to, to find something. 8:13 I mean, if you, if you really want it, you, you can, you can get it kind of thing, and I think, um, for me, the, the step I knew 8:21 to take to take me to the next level or to s- to stay as a professional footballer, I knew I had to go over to Thailand and, and take that opportunity, because, uh, it's a, it's very difficult, um, especially back then and now as well, um, you see a lot of players from, from youth teams, they go back to the, from the youth teams and they can't get a spot in the A League team, and they go back to the NPL, 8:44 and they just can't get another shot in the A League. 8:46 Um, not that it's their fault, but whether there's just not enough teams and there's not enough contracts and whatnot, not that they're, they're not, um, ready to, to play in the A League or not good enough for the A League. 8:58 Yeah. Well, that's, uh, this has come up again with a couple of people. It's like the numbers, obviously you've only got the, you know, the 12 teams or so. 9:05 You've got youth team that you're trying to promote some, you'll bring in some foreigners. There's, there's guys there already on contracts. It's not like there's a lot of spaces available. Yeah. Excuse me. 9:15 Uh, 100%, and that's the, the difference I have seen also, um, over in Asia and compared to back home. I mean, even in Thailand, they've, they've got four full divisions. 9:27 Um, first two being professional, third and fourth semi-pro. 9:31 But those teams from, you know, the third and fourth can, um, push up into, into the first division, and that actually happened with, um, my old club in Thailand recently. Um, 9:43 they dropped down to the third division after I left, and they can't-- They actually dissolved as a club but formed with a, another team. 9:51 Um, and they got back-to-back promotions and, and now [chuckles] they're in the first league. Wow. 9:56 Um, and I suppose that's something that we've always lacked back home, and I think everyone, everyone's aware of that, but, 10:02 um, I think the FFA's doing their best at the moment, um, to kind of push for that national second division, and it's really growing. 10:09 I think you can see with the, with the Tillies the other night with that penalty shootout win, it was just massive, wasn't it? 10:15 And you can see everyone's getting behind it, so it's just, it's awesome really for, for the both, the men's and, and the women's, just for footy back home, I reckon. Oh, definitely. 10:24 The growth and the, the support that they've had in these last couple of weeks has been incredible, and like the games have been intense. Like you, you know, you're feeling sick watching them, you're so nervous. Yes. 10:33 Yeah. Uh, but it's been amazing. And yeah, hopefully like that it just, it's something else which adds to growing the game overall. You know, grow the A League, grow the W League. Socceroos' done well. 10:43 Matildas are doing amazing. So it's all going in the right direction. Let's just hope we get enough support, you know, behind it to, to keep that going. 100%. 100%. Mm-hmm. So going into your, um, 10:54 your actual, like I suppose the behind the scenes of, of heading to Thailand as a 21-year-old, what did that look like for you, I guess suppose the first week and the, the culture shock, and then what did you have to arrange to, to get yourself over there in regards to, to visas or, or passports and bank accounts and bits and pieces? 11:12 Yeah. So for the, for the first week when I went over for the trial, um, 11:19 visas and stuff was okay because it's Thailand, I think you get a month at least, um, holiday visa, which was good, and I was just going over for, for the week. Um, th- and that was another thing I had to do at the time. 11:30 I had to organize my own flights over there to, to, to pay for them, um, which was a, I suppose another risk I was taking. Um, and then once I got over there, the club was good. 11:41 They, they sorted out the hotel and everything for me. Um, I was lucky at the time, like I said before, the TD was English, Mark. 11:47 Mark really, a really good guy, um, who was able to sort everything out for me, and that I suppose really helped me as well. Um, 11:56 I think thinking back, maybe if, if there wasn't any English-speaking people and it was only Thai people working at the club, it might have been a bit different for me. 12:04 Mm.But that really helped us support, definitely as a younger player, just to have that person who, who was able to speak English and to connect to, um, and, and with the coach as well, with Jason. 12:15 Um, and then once I ended up signing and going back, um, they had sorted out visas and, and everything for me. Um, they flew me over. 12:25 Uh, I think I just had to go to, we had to go to Malaysia, which is pretty common over there. 12:29 You have to fly in, 'cause you go in, you start in on the one-month holiday visa, then once that's about to turn up, 'cause they sort all the papers whilst you're out there that first month training, then they'll fly you over and you stay a couple of days, go to the, the Thai embassy in, in another country, 12:46 and then they'll sort out your, your proper visa and then fly you back and just get back, back into training and whatnot. 12:53 So once they'd agreed or offered you a contract that you'd accepted, from there, they'll then take on the costs of getting you back there, sorting out your visa and accommodation and those types of things? Yeah, yeah. 13:03 Yeah. They, so they sorted out, um, yeah, flights, visa. Accommodation I had to, to sort out myself, um, that first year of the contract. 13:11 I think, I think I had a second-year option in my contract where the accommodation may have been included. I can't remember thinking back now. Um, but it's not, it's not uncommon. Hmm. 13:24 But all in all, a, a very good experience? Yeah. It was, it was really good. I think the, the most important thing for me was just to be playing football professionally week in, week out. Um, 13:35 that was my main goal going over there and, and just playing. Um, 13:41 I, I think I ended up getting 18 or 19 games in, and I, I ended up leaving halfway through the season when, when Sydney had called me to, to come back, um, which was another decision I had to kind of think about at the time, because I knew going back to Sydney, I wasn't gonna be coming in as a, 13:58 as a starting player. I know- I knew it was gonna be maybe a, a bit of a risk, um, coming back home, and I, I do sometimes think, I wonder what, what could have been if I'd stayed over in Thailand and, and kept playing. 14:09 Um, but I guess, you know, that's, that's all part of it as well, isn't it? You, you never know what could have been. So, um, I ended up making that decision to come back home and, um, stuck with it. 14:20 So that's been, um, two pretty big risks you've taken in a short period of time. 14:25 But going on to the Thailand thing, so even Division 2 over there, it was a full-time professional contract, training every day, getting paid decent money, I'm assuming? Yeah. Yeah. 14:35 So it, it was, um, full-time professional. We had a, we had a good setup obviously. Our coach, Jason, had, had played in the English Premier League, so he had pretty good experience. 14:46 He'd coached with Arsenal Women's previously. Um, so everything that he had put into the, the preseason, the training was really professional and it was a really good setup. Um, he actually was, um, 15:02 fired, I think, within maybe 10 or 12 game... Oh, his position changed, sorry, um, to the, to the CEO, and they brought in a Thai coach 'cause the team wasn't doing too well. 15:13 Um, and that was a, a lot different, um, coming from, 15:18 you know, having this, this English guy with a, a style I'm kind of used to back home coaching and stuff like that, and then the, having a Thai coach come in, um, which was a lot different, his, his style of coaching and, and methodology. 15:29 Um, that was another thing to get, to get used to. But it was, it was good in a way because you get to experience what it's like, because- Hmm... 15:37 you know, obviously in Thailand there's, there's a lot, not every coach is foreign and there's a lot of, a lot of Thai coaches. Um, and it was good to see, I suppose, their way of thinking and the way they see football. 15:46 It's a lot different, um, to the way we see it and the way we play and the way they train. Um, so yeah, that was, that was a good experience, uh, too. 15:54 And what, what were the, what were the biggest differences you found when you've sort of switched from, from one coach to another? 16:00 Um, I think definitely [chuckles] with the Thai coach, he was a lot more, I suppose you could say, old school. Um, longer, longer sessions. Uh, just little kind of things, I suppose, in the style of his play. 16:13 He was a lot more direct, whereas before, the previous coach wanted to play a lot more, I suppose, football kind of brand, where you're keeping the ball. Um, just things like that in, in terms of your training sessions. 16:24 Um, it was a little bit different, I suppose, and the style of play. And how did you find yourself... 16:31 So one of the points that you'd made when you, you sent over to me, and this might be at a later date, but 'cause you would've been young then, but, um, overseas, like your body and your health and, and taking care of that in a foreign country, um, you know, injury prevention and illness, how was that when you first went across there in regards to obviously a new diet, I suppose, and, and different foods and different routines? 16:51 How did you manage all that? Yeah. So we, we were quite lucky. 16:55 We had a, um, Italian physio actually, who, who started with us, um, at the, at the start of the season, and I think he may have left about halfway through as well. 17:05 Um, so he was really good in terms of, in terms of that stuff, in terms of injuries and whatnot. 17:09 Um, but I did also, I learnt as well a lot from, from my mate Kane, the, the Kiwi guy who, who'd obviously been playing in Asia a lot, and he said, you know, the, the standards are a lot different here in terms of physiotherapy and, and sports science. 17:23 It's not, it's not like it is back home. I think Australia is, is either the top one or two in, in the world, I think, in terms of sports science and, and physiotherapy. So he said, um, you know, you gotta, 17:35 uh, I suppose keep your own standards of, of wellbeing in terms of injuries, make sure you do your own routine and, and, 17:44 um, whether it's preha- prehabilitation, um, post-game recoveries, eating the right foods and stuff like that. Um, 17:54 and in terms of nutrition, it, it was a bit different to start with, but I was able to, to cook, um, myself at home. Uh, we only... 18:03 We didn't actually have a, a, I suppose, a proper clubhouse in Thailand, so they, they brought food, um-But it wasn't compulsory to, to be eating that. You could just go home and eat. 18:13 So I was able to, I suppose, watch my diet, um, by myself back home. Um, 18:21 and yeah, I suppose it's, it's things not only you have to, to learn over there, but even here in Korea or back home in Australia, you need to, to do those things in terms of keeping, keeping your body right, those, those things when you're away from the training ground. 18:33 Um, I suppose I just had to learn it over in Asia in a different environment. Yeah. It's so important, isn't it? 18:39 I've had, um, a couple of guests on now who, who have been to Asia or were in different countries, and they said it's the, the stuff that they were doing off the field which they feel really helped them. 18:48 You know, like it's, it's a big step going there to play, but when you're in an environment like that where it not, might not all be set up, you might imagine at a Sydney FC or a big club that the lunch is there, the cafeteria is there, the physios, everything's in-house, it's easy to sort of, to do it. 19:02 It's a lot harder, I guess, to do it yourself. As everyone knows, you know, to work out at home, um, is more difficult to mentally get prepared for that and, and stick in a good routine. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. 19:13 And, um, you're right. 19:15 When back home and, and stuff, when you've got everything there for you or, or you're being told to do it, um, by the coaches or by the physical coach, it's a lot different rather than I suppose it's, it's your own responsibility, um, to do it when you're, 19:28 um, in other countries, in Asia and stuff, where that may not be available, or you may not have that coach who, who's telling you to do it or the importance of doing it. Um, and I think it's... 19:39 Yeah, at the end of the day, it's go- it's your own responsibility as a player to be able to take care of your body and, and your nutrition and whatnot. Um, especially, 19:48 I suppose you could say back home in, in the Western world where it's- Mm... I suppose it's more common and stuff to do that. Um, it's a lot different over in Asia and Thailand and stuff, for sure. 19:59 Do you find the, do you find the players over there, like the local players didn't do it as much as, as say the foreigners that come in? Um, it's hard to say. 20:10 I suppose, I wouldn't have known too much about their, um, I suppose life off the pitch po- post- Mm... training and stuff. But for example, pre-training, they were definitely, 20:23 a lot of the times it was the foreign players doing prehabilitation, stuff like that, injury prevention before training, um, whereas a lot of the Thai boys would kind of just kind of rock up and, and get straight onto the field. 20:36 Yeah. 20:36 Probably, and again, as you said, it's probably from an educational point of view of that, that Western world or where you've been brought up maybe in an academy or, or with a good level of coaching and a, a lot of, um, facilities that, that you know, that might not be available to, to the locals. 20:49 Yeah, 100%. That, that's, that's probably the, the biggest reason, I suppose. 20:53 Like you said, it's just that from an education standpoint, they haven't been told, you know, that if you do this prehab before training, that you're gonna have less risk of an injury on the field and stuff like that. 21:05 Um, the... [coughs] Sorry, excuse me. The, um, how, how can you say? The... Yeah, they just have less opportunity, I suppose, to, to that education as we do back home. Do you find that... 21:21 Have you seen it at bigger clubs, like say a, you know, a, a top tub in, a top club in, in Thailand that might have a bit more money? Do you find that they have those facilities and education? Yeah. 21:33 I, I, I definitely th- I haven't actually seen it firsthand, but I, from seeing, I suppose, videos on the internet, and I did have a mate who also, um, he'd worked as an S&C with Buriram, which is probably the biggest club over in Thailand. 21:47 Um, he worked with their academy, and he used to put up a lot of videos of what he was doing with those, those kids. Um, and we're, we're saying from say 12 to 16. Um, 22:00 and he was going through proper gym routines and, and et cetera, um, prehabilitation exercises, whatnot, with those kids, um, who were at that academy. 22:09 Whereas if you're going to another club, for example, in the, in the second division, w- they might not, for ex- first of all, not even have an academy. 22:17 Um, but second of all, they definitely wouldn't have, um, you know, a coach showing those kids at that age what you need to be doing once you become a pro, 17, 18, 19, to, to take care of your body and, and whatnot, which is, I suppose, the most important time to learn is at, at that age- Mm... 22:34 12 to 16, to learn those habits. Yeah. When your body's growing and changing so much. Fantastic, mate. That's, um... And how did the, how did the conversation on the move then back to Sydney FC come? 22:48 You w- did you say you were halfway through the season with, with the Thai team? Yeah. So we, we were about halfway through and, um, we'd had quite a lot of change. 22:57 Like I said, we had a new coach who, who came in, and we had a lot of new Thai players come in, um, at that halfway transfer window, the mid, mid-season transfer window. 23:08 Um, and we were sitting, I think bottom or, or second from the bottom as well, so the season wasn't doing too well. 23:16 Um, but with the, those new players who'd came in, we'd kind of changed it a little bit and we were back on the up a little bit, I suppose you could say. 23:24 Um, and I ended up getting a call from Steve Corica and Rob Stanton, um, the coaches at the time from Sydney, and they said, "Look, would you be interested in, in coming back and, and whatnot?" And I was obviously... 23:38 I think Sydney had won the championship the, the year before against Perth, um, in the, in the grand final. And so I knew Sydney were in a, in a good place. They had a lot of good players. Um, 23:49 and I had to kind of think, "Oh, you know, would I want to stay here in Thailand? I, you know, we're not doing too well. We're, we could get relegated to the third division," which is then, it's not even- Mm... 23:59 full-time professional, it's semi-pro. What would I do? Um, and Sydney had a two-year offer on the table for me, so I ended up taking that. 24:07 Um, and like I said before, and knowing the risk that I might not end up playing, um, 24:13 but I ended up just taking the risk, I suppose, going back and just seeing what happened over those, those two years.Yeah, as you said earlier, there's nothing like playing, and I suppose when you've left the, you know, the youth league in, in Sydney and in Australia, to be playing full-time professionally against adults every week no doubt helps your game immensely. 24:33 Um, so yeah, I suppose that would have been a big decision to go back knowing that you, you're coming in probably as a squad player, gotta work hard, but at least the opportunity's there, and I suppose a two-year deal with a bit of financial security and, and contract security, um, makes it, makes it worthwhile. 24:47 Yeah, definitely. And, and, and that's the other thing as well. Um, 24:52 you know, i-in Thailand with our team as well, there'd been talks, I'm not sure whether it happened or not, but, um, we'd lost a few sponsors and stuff like that. 25:00 Some Thai players apparently may, may not have been getting paid, um, at all or their f- their full salary at the time as well, which was a thing I had to think about as well, whether the-they were actually gonna be able to pay me for those next five or six months that I had left on my contract until the end of the season. 25:17 Um, which is another thing which happens over i-in Southeast Asia as well, because a lot of these clubs, you know, they're not backed by, by big financial corporations or, or whatnot. 25:29 So financial security was definitely a, a thing for me as well coming back home, knowing that I was at least gonna be paid. Um, and that was definitely a thing I, I had to think about at the time. 25:41 And did you have to negotiate out of your contract in Thai to move back at that point 'cause you were roughly halfway through a season? Yes. They, they didn't wanna let me go actually when I first went in. 25:52 Um, and I ended up having to speak to, uh, the old coach who was there, who was then at the time the, the CEO or CEO they had placed him as, um, Jason, and he said, "Look, 26:06 I think if you, if you really wanna get out of here, you, you've gotta go to them and, and just say..." 'Cause I think I'd just finished the month or I was just about to get paid. 26:14 I said, "All right, well, just take that whole month's pay. I don't want it." And then they ended up rolling the red carpet out for me and said, "No worries, you can go," kind of thing. Um, 26:26 so they didn't make it too difficult at the time. How difficult would that have been if Jason hadn't been there, who you could, I suppose, speak English to quite comfortably and, and you knew him? 26:37 If you had to go into a, a Thai CEO or a Thai technical director, how difficult would it be to get out of a contract like that, do you think? Yeah, it, it's hard to say. 26:48 Um, I think as well because they had already, um, my mate Kane, the, the Kiwi player, he'd left I think maybe three weeks earlier or four weeks earlier as well. He ended up leaving to another club. He, 27:00 um, he didn't wanna stay. Um, we'd lost another foreign player as well in that, um, transfer window. 27:08 Uh, yeah, it, it definitely could have been hard because the, uh, the actual CEO, the Thai CEO at the time, he spoke a little bit of English, but not too much. Um, and 27:19 I mean, I w- I was lucky in the, the sense that they did let me go because they could have just turned around and said, "No, we wanna keep you." 27:24 And, and even possibly they might have said, "Oh, well, we're not gonna play you now either because you've- Mm.... you, you wanna leave," or, or whatever. Um, 27:31 but luckily they were, they were good enough to, to kinda let me go. Uh, I think I did end up speaking with him, uh, the Thai CEO at the time, and just said, "Look, I've just got this opportunity to go back home, and, 27:43 um, you know, the club went on such a good situation, I need to get back home," and stuff like that. And, and were you handling all this by yourself, or did you have an agent at that point? 27:53 Yeah, I did have an agent who, who was helping me, um, Paddy Dominguez at the time. Is he from Australia? Was he someone- Yeah... you knew from here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, excellent. 28:03 Suppose that might have made it a little bit easier. It'd be very daunting to go into, to a r- [chuckles] room like that as a youngster and, and try and negotiate your way out of a contract. Yeah, yeah, for sure. 28:11 I, I was, I was definitely speaking with Kane as well at the time and- Mm... and had asked kinda how he'd gotten out, out of his contract, 'cause he ended up going to another Thai club. Um- Mm... 28:21 and that's what they had said to me. They said as kind of, I suppose, an ultimatum, they said, "You can leave, but as long as you're not going to another club here in Thailand, that's fine." 28:30 Um, which I suppose is fair enough if I was gonna leave on a, on a free transfer and then go to another Thai club. Understandably, they wouldn't be happy about it. Yeah. No, definitely. Definitely. 28:41 So then that brings you back to Sydney FC on a two-year deal. How did that all work out for you? Yeah, the, the two years at Sydney was really good. 28:49 It was, it was highs and lows for me because as a team, we, we did really well. You know, we-- That first season we won the premiership and the, and the championship, which was awesome. 28:57 The only thing for me in those two years was lacking was game time, um, 29:02 which, which was hard as well, I suppose, because, you know, we were doing really well as a team and it was, it was hard to break into, and understandably. Um, looking back now, it's, it's hard to say. 29:15 I mean, maybe I should have tried to go somewhere earlier after the first year. I don't... It's, it's hard to say, and you, you never know really as well because anything can happen in, in football at any time. 29:25 Someone can get injured or suspension, et cetera, et cetera. You never know when your, when your time's gonna come. Um, so unfortunately I didn't get as many games as I wanted to. 29:34 Um, but it was just good to be in an environment, um, with a winning team, with, you know, players, experienced players there at, at Sydney to learn from them and how they go about it and, and, and the culture that was created, um, 29:47 at that club, which I think really helped us to, to win the double at the time. It was really probably started from the culture that we had built there. Mm. 29:57 And do you think, I know it's difficult 'cause you always say playing is, is the best way, you know, obviously to learn, but I guess being in a good environment with a good culture, as you say, with experienced players and having success, no doubt as a young player, that must just be, it's a different type of education, isn't it? 30:13 I mean, you wanna be playing, but no doubt, I'd imagine that's probably been a good thing for you just being in and around that. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. 30:20 I, I think, um-You can learn from, a lot from players even in through training and, and just watching their actions on, on the field. 30:29 Um, but I definitely think that as a player personally, um, you know, the, the best way for improvement is, is to be about playing games. 30:38 Um, there's nothing more that's gonna then improve you than when you're on the park yourself, and you can learn from, from what you're doing and whatnot. Um, 30:47 but you know, that, it, it was definitely hard for me at times not being able to play and, and just training and, and whatnot. 30:54 Um, I suppose it taught me as well just to keep mentally strong and, and disciplined, um, knowing that eventually I'll get my, my chance, and 31:04 that was a big part for me, I suppose, in those two years, just staying mentally strong. And did that-- so did you see out the full two years of your Sydney deal, and then where did you go from there? Yeah. 31:17 So I, [clears throat] towards the end of my contract, uh, with Sydney, I went to Brisbane for like a short loan. I was able to go for a bit. Um, I, I wanted to go, 31:29 I think until the end of the season, but I was only let, uh, by Sydney to go for two weeks in the end. Um, but even that short stint was good for me. 31:37 I, I actually played, I think, the same amount of games in those two weeks with Brisbane than I did with Sydney in two years, um, which was pretty- That's, yeah. That's a lot [laughs]... amazing really. I know. 31:49 [laughs] It's time and thinking back on it. Um, and then once my con... So I ended up coming back with Sydney and then for the last little bit of that season. 31:57 Um, and then after that I was, uh, over to India with Northeast. India. How was that? That's what I'd love to know a little bit about that. How did that come about again? Yeah. I, I'd had, um, [sighs] 32:13 couldn't say massive interest, but like a little bit of interest, um, from a team after the first season, uh, with Sydney. Um, I remember it was, uh, can't... 32:23 One of the boys at Sydney was, I think it was actually Lafondra who ended up going over to, to Mumbai in that first year. He said, "Oh, you know, there's a club that might be interested in you. 32:31 Would you be keen to go to India?" And I kinda said, "Oh, I'd, I'd rather just stick out this next year at Sydney here and, and see what happens." Um, but that kind of stuck in my head, um, until... 32:43 And at that time, I think there was a lot of Aussies who started to go over to the ISL as well. Um, and then once my contract had finished up at Sydney, I didn't have too many options. 32:53 Obviously, I hadn't really played, so I just needed to get something where I could go out and, and play. 32:58 Um, and Northeastern ended up coming and they showed a bit interest and I kinda just grabbed it with both hands and said, "Yeah, let's do it." Um, and it was, yeah, it was a pretty tough season for us as well, um, there. 33:10 But I ended up playing, um, the majority of the games, which was good for me, which is what I really wanted, um, just to get back out on the park. Um, it was definitely different though because we were in the bubble. 33:19 So all the teams were in Goa 'cause it was still COVID at the time. Um, so all the teams were based in Goa. You're in your hotel. I think the season was maybe four or five months. 33:31 Um, you couldn't leave the hotel, only to and from training on the bus. Um, so it was definitely, definitely interesting and, and tough at times, but overall a good experience for me in the end. 33:43 Difficult situation no doubt. I mean, hard enough being in a foreign country, but to be in a, a foreign country in a bubble where you, you really can't do much. How did you deal with that? Yeah. I mean, 33:53 l- luckily I had, uh, had my study to do, um, online with, with uni. Um, a lot of PlayStation as well [laughs] at the time. 34:03 Um, they had a, a pool table and a ping pong table as well, so you'd go out and, and do a bit of that and, um, other than that really you were just, um, training and then recovering. 34:14 Um, so it wasn't so different as opposed to back home or to a normal situation. The only thing was you just, you couldn't go out. Um, 34:24 so yeah, it was definitely, I think, hard to, to get used to at the start, but then once the season was going, we were playing every maybe four or five days, which was- Mm... was good as well. 34:33 So the games just kept coming and, and then, um, ended up going, um, pretty fast, which was good. Yeah. I suppose in between training, recovery, and games. And someone I spoke to a couple of weeks ago, they, they said 34:45 when they're in a foreign country like that with not much more else to do, football is your focus, so you can make sure you recover well, that you eat well, and you prepare, and no doubt that'll have a, a good effect on your football overall. 34:58 Yeah. 34:58 I think that's, that's the kinda plus side to it really when, when you look at it that way, when you don't actually have much else to do, um, you can just really [laughs] focus on your, on your footy and your recovery and, and everything else that comes with it, whether it's gym, nutrition, all that kind of stuff. 35:14 Um, so that, I suppose you gotta t- kind of take the positives from the situation, um, and just make it, make the most of it. 35:24 And when you went over there, was that a, a different, uh, would be a different thing altogether I imagine. 35:29 So you have to get new visas, new banking, uh, moving obviously, and was that something that the club sorted out for you as well, or did you have an a- your agent help you with that? Yeah. 35:39 So my, my agent had a, a contact with an Indian agent over there, um, who sorted all that for me as well, who was really good, um, in terms of speaking with the club and organizing all that for me and visas. 35:50 Um, I didn't-- I actually got my visa sorted before I left, um, in Sydney. 35:56 I went to the Indian embassy here, um, and got that all sorted, and I think they sped it up as well, which was good, 'cause usually it can, it can take quite a while. Um, 36:07 and then once I was over there on ground, it w- everything was obviously all sorted and it was kinda just from the airport straight to the hotel and, and a lot of COVID tests. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. No, I can imagine. 36:19 It would've been, uh... Uh, did you have to have them ongoing while you were training and playing all the time? Yeah. 36:23 At one point we were having them every day, um, every morning, um, before we go to training, get a COVID test and, um-Yeah, it was pretty crazy really. You think of, of the amount of, um, 36:36 the RAT tests that we used and, and went through would've been thousands. Mm. 36:42 And what was the biggest, um, when you landed there then, so you're in India, obviously COVID's there, but outside of that, the, the level of the football, the, the facilities, everything, how were they? 36:53 Yeah, so it, it was quite interesting obviously because we were in Goa. I think we only played in three stadiums there, um, and all three were really, I think quite, quite good considering that, 37:05 um, what, I think there were 10 or, or 11 teams playing, um, each week on only three stadiums. They, they did a really good job to keep them maintained, maintained really well. Um, 37:17 the training ground was pretty bad that we trained at really. Um, it was maybe a 30, 30-minute on the, on the bus ride to get there. Um, training ground wasn't very good at all. There was no showers. 37:30 You couldn't shower after training, you had to get on the bus, um, and go back home. The standard of football, it was, it was okay. It was, it was interesting. 37:39 I think definitely in India the, the bigger teams have the better, uh, local players, which you see a l- in a lot of, um, countries as well, which is pretty standard. Um, I think it's definitely improving. 37:50 It was better than I thought it was gonna be, um, and I think each year it's just gonna get better and better. 37:56 You can see with the infrastructure they've put into the ISL, I think they're doing it really well now, um, compared to when it, when it first came in, it was kind of just a league where they were getting massive, big players. 38:06 You know, Roberto Carlos, Diego Forlán, just, like, giving them a, a hump of cash to come in and they wouldn't-- they'd play, I don't know, five or six games really. It'd be done in two months, um, the whole season. 38:18 I think it's turning into a proper league now, and 38:21 I, I think probably in the next five or 10 years that they'll probably put a lot of money into the league and, and try and build the infrastructure and, and really build it up. 38:28 I think the potential is there for it to, to get better. Um, but it'll probably obviously be a long process as well because it's certainly a fairly new league as well. Hmm. 38:37 And there's, um, who was on-- Cameron Watson was on, uh, speaking with me a few weeks ago, and he played over there, and he s- spoke quite highly of it, uh, but he did also mention that they're bringing in a lot of foreign coaches, then coaching the locals over there, which obviously will hopefully, and again, it takes time, but hopefully that'll help, you know, improve the overall game between good foreign players, but then helping upskill and, and fast track their, their local players themselves. 39:00 Yeah, 100%. 39:01 I think, um, just about most of the coaches there are, are foreign and, um, I think the important thing for, for Indian football as well will be getting those, those foreign coaches or, or better coaches, I suppose, for the, for the younger players in the academies and, you know, from once they're younger from, you know, 12, 13, 14, building them up. 39:23 Um, once they get to the professional stage, they'll be a lot more prepared, um, and have a better understanding of the game. Um, I actually, I remember one of the Indian players saying to me, 39:36 um, 'cause I was-- I think I had a conversation with him about tactics and stuff like that, and this and that, and he said, "Uh, bro, you know, look, we, um, [chuckles] we haven't been taught that. 39:46 I'm only just learning this now at this age. I haven't been brought up with that since a, since a young boy, so, you know, it's a bit different for us." 39:53 So it was, it was interesting to, to hear that, I suppose, especially from one of the players. Yeah. 39:59 Well, especially if you've come up through a, just say an A-League youth academy, that's no doubt a big part of it as you get older is the, you know, the technical and tactical side. 40:08 But when you do go to some of these countries, potentially in Southeast Asia, as you say, it could be very foreign to them that it's just not something they've had the, you know, the money at the club to do or, or bring the right people in to, to teach them this. 40:19 So just different experiences all over, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, 100%. And, but I do think as well, it's interesting to see with, 40:28 um, the way they've, uh, been brought up through their academies and whatnot, um, it, it also brings a different style of the game as well and, you know, I suppose no one's to say which one's right or wrong, um, because obviously there's... 40:43 You can see the type of players they have over in Southeast Asia and Asia. It's a lot different than the players we have back home in terms of their ability on the ball. They're, they're very technical players and 40:53 y- you could say almost like a, a street kind of football style, and it's really interesting to see because you could probably say that a lot of their players may be technically better, 41:04 um, than we have back home, especially here in Korea and, you know, possibly over in Thailand as well. Technically, they're unbelievably gifted, um, 41:14 and that definitely has to do with the way they've, they've been brought up through their, their youth systems and, and the way of playing. So it definitely brings a different, um, 41:24 I suppose, style of the game for the players once they, they get to the professional level. Yeah, it's probably without all the facilities and money and resources, it's probably less structured their training over there. 41:36 And as you say, it's not to say that's a bad thing, because even if we watch some of the Asian Cup qualifiers and Australia might play a, if it's Qatar or, you know, one of these Middle Eastern countries, technically they do have very good players. 41:47 Yeah. So as you say, they might just not have-- they'll have a very different upbringing. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And, and you can see as well in, in those games, it's, it's not easy for us as, with the Socceroos. 41:57 I mean, obviously we, we expect because we have high standards o- of ourselves to, to win these games a- against those countries and stuff, but they, they certainly don't make it easy. 42:05 And, and there's other things obviously to think of in terms of, um, you know, the, the conditions you're playing in, the, the grounds, the heat, the humidity. It's, it all adds, adds up and, and plays a part. 42:18 That was gonna be one of my next things. How did you-- what were the main off-field challenges that you had? 42:22 And no doubt COVID, you know, being in India would've been a, the main one, but outside of that, between Thailand, Korea, India, what, what have you found to be difficult, I guess, to firstly maybe wrap your head around and, and get in a routine of, but yeah, the off-field side of things, how have you found that and, and navigated all that? 42:39 I think the, the, the biggest thing for me e- each time, which I suppose will happen to, to anyone, is, is kind of just adjusting to the culture, um-Which takes time as well, because, you know, back home in Australia we're pretty rich in terms of, uh, multiculturalism. 42:54 You know, we've got a, a really diverse country, we've got a lot of different, um, uh, country... Oh, beg your pardon. Um, how can you say it? A lot of people from, from a lot of parts of the world living in Australia. 43:09 Whereas you go over there and for the most part, if you're in Thailand, the most part of the population's Thai, or in Korea, the most part's Korean. 43:16 Um, so definitely just adjusting to their, to their culture and their ways of life, um, which is what you need to do. 43:22 Obviously you're in their country, so you have to try and do your best to, to respect that and, and their culture, um, because it is, it is a lot different to, to back home. 43:33 Um, but once you do that, I think it's, it helps as well if, if you, if you can try and do that because you, you earn the respect from, from the players and the, and the team and the coaches, um, which is a big thing and, you know, football's a team sport and that's a big part of it and I, I believe is, is the culture and the camaraderie of a team and, and if you can get that respect from the players, um, 43:55 they'll show it back to you. So i- I think that's a really big part of it. No, definitely. Definitely agree. 44:00 And, uh, another player said the same thing, he's in Malaysia and he said once you get that, that trust and, and respect of your teammates and then the coaches, it makes everything a lot easier, and if they can see that you're trying and trying to adapt to their ways of life, no doubt they'll, you know, they'll sort of put an arm around you and, and help you along the way. 44:18 In one of the other myth- things that you mentioned was the importance of having someone on the ground that you can sort of speak to and, and knows the language and that can just get you around. 44:27 Have you found that at every club you've been at so far? 44:29 There's, there's a, there's someone there, whether it's a more experienced professional or, or just someone around the club that generally can help you in all these little bits and pieces? Yeah. 44:38 I've, I've had that probably with each experience I've had. 44:42 Um, in Thailand I had, I had Kane there and the, the TD and the coaches who were there who spoke English, um, even Dave who, who ended up sorting the move for me, he had a bit of experience over in Malaysia himself and stuff like that, so he, he knew what the game's like, um, over there. 44:59 Um, [lips smack] 45:00 here in Korea as well, uh, it's pretty lucky to have a few other Aussie boys playing here at the moment as well who I've been able to catch up with and speak with, um, which is really helpful, and there's a translator here in our team who's been really good and, and helpful as well. 45:17 Um, with India it was a lot easier. Or I wouldn't say easier, but a lot different I suppose, because, um, everyone spoke English, so 45:26 it was a lot different in terms of being able to meet players, uh, learn their names, have general conversations with them, um, at the beginning. 45:34 Um, whereas when you're in Thailand and Korea, not as many players, uh, speak English, so it's a bit more difficult, I suppose, in the beginning to, um, get to know them on a personal basis. 45:47 And does that come down, I suppose, the only way and, uh, th- that we just touched on before, but is by doing the right things on and off the field to gain their respect and y- you might find because like that you're a foreigner that, that then they'll be a bit more welcoming to you and maybe make a bit more of an effort if, if they can see that that's what you're trying? 46:03 Yeah, I think 100%. 46:04 I think 100% if, if y- if they can see the, the effort from you trying to, I suppose, integrate in their, in their culture and, um, understand their ways and, and be respectful of their culture, they're definitely gonna be more welcoming. 46:16 Um, and I suppose, like you said, maybe put, put an arm around you and say, "How are you going?" Et cetera, et cetera. 46:23 Um, which is good for you a- as a foreign player as well to, to always get that from the, from the locals. It's, it's really important. And how have you found, um, Korea o- out of the, the three places you've been? 46:34 What's been the, I suppose the biggest challenges you've had to overcome other than the language, getting into Korea and getting into that, that culture and way of life? How long have you been there now? Yeah. 46:44 So I've been here for about eight months now in Korea. Um, I've really enjoyed it. It's really, it's really good here. I'm in a really good part as well, which has been lucky at a, at a good club. 46:55 Songnam's a pretty big club historically here. Um, they're one of the biggest clubs in, in Korea, um, you know, throughout the '90s and early 2000s and they're kind of at a, at a moment now where 47:07 we're in the second div- we're trying to get back into the first division and, [lips smack] and get back to where they were before. Um, 47:15 and the, the biggest thing I suppose that's been different for me definitely is the culture here in, in Korea. I think it's, 47:22 it's different to Thailand in terms of Thailand is, if you look at it as a country, has a lot of tourism. 47:27 It's probably one of their main industries, so they're, they're used to having a lot of foreigners and a lot of, um, English-speaking people, where plenty of Aussies, I know, go there just for holidays. 47:37 Um, whereas here in Korea you don't get that as much. 47:41 I don't think tourism is definitely their number one industry, um, so you don't get a lot of people speaking English, whether it's at the club or even if you're just at the supermarket or going down the street, you know, they'll always, I suppose, expect you to, to speak Korean a bit more. 47:56 Um, but there are a lot of Koreans who obviously speak English as well. Um, but their culture is definitely, I've found anyway, compared to, to Thailand or, or India, very strong here. 48:09 They're very proud of their culture. Um, so it has been a bit harder, I suppose, to, to understand that and get used to it. 48:16 Um, but that's all a part of it as well, um, which has been good to try and understand that and, and really learn from, from what they have and what they see from their perspectives. 48:26 And just on one of the things you mentioned there about, say, shopping, right? So you're in a, a country that no one's speaking English and you don't speak Korean and you're quite new. 48:34 Do the club help you with that, like the first time or so, or does someone give you a bit of a, a direction around where you do your shopping, how to pay for it, et cetera, et cetera? Um, not really, to be honest. 48:46 You kind of on your own. I mean, I, I could go to the translator if I, if I wanted to or-If I need to. If I-- he's really good [coughs] with that. 48:55 If I was in an emergency or whatnot, I could probably just give him a buzz and he'd get back to me. Um, 49:00 but I s- in here Korea, a lot of the things, for example, in the shopping, they've got the, to pay, you don't actually go through the, with the lady who's working or the man behind the thingy, the counter. 49:12 It's all on the el-electronic thing now, and it's got it in English, which is pretty good. Um... Oh, okay. But I mean, if you're, if you're lost, I suppose you just gotta use Google Translate. 49:24 It's pretty lucky, you think about it now, 'cause I always think about this really, to be honest. 49:28 I, I wonder what it would've been like playing here, you know, ten, 15 years ago when you don't have Google Translate on your phone just to, if you're stuck or whatever, you can just do that. Um, I was actually... 49:38 I remember a few months back, I'd f-forgot my wallet at home, and I went to pay at the counter at a, at a cafe, and I said, "Oh, shit. I, I forgot my, forgot my wallet here." 49:51 And I had to call the translator, and he ended up, um, organizing an online bank transfer. So I was able to transfer from my bank to the, um, lady who was working at the store behind the counter 50:03 to pay for the coffee, and then I transferred into her bank account. And I just thought, "Bloody hell." 50:09 Like, what would've happened, you know, if, if we couldn't do that back in the day, or if I couldn't call him to, to help me out? Um. 50:15 I think, um, technology definitely makes it a lot easier now to, to go overseas and play, um, even between just FaceTime to keep in touch with family. 50:24 As you say, whether it be banking, Google Translate, like you can pretty much do anything now on your phone. Um, it would make things a lot easier, and it learns a lot of new skills no doubt as well. One hundred percent. 50:34 I think, I think nowadays with, with technology, it makes it, it makes it a whole lot easier. 50:39 Obviously, it, it, it's definitely is still hard, but like you said, with FaceTime, I'm, I'm on FaceTime with my girlfriend every night and, and with mom and dad a lot as well. 50:47 Um, being able to see them, speak to them, it's a lot easier, you know, than back in the day. 50:52 You'd be able to call them, bloody cost you an arm and a leg to, to call someone back home and, or you're sending postcards and, and whatnot. 50:59 So it's, it's definitely a l- a lot different and makes it a lot easier, for sure. And we probably jumped ahead to the Korea part, but how... Did you leave India and go straight to Korea? Was that the move? No. 51:11 So I left, I left India and I, I still had another year on my contract there. Um, and I wasn't sure whether I was gonna stay or not, and I think I finished up that season in, in March, and I was kinda, 51:25 mm, weighing up whether I could try to find something in the A-League back in June or, or wherever it may be, but nothing ended up coming. 51:32 And then I ended up getting a call from, from the club and they said, "Look, we don't wanna keep you," and this was, was in September. 51:38 And all this time, mind you, I w- I'd just been training on my own from say, uh, February, March, um, up until then. And I ended up getting, uh, a buyout of my contract from them. I said, "All right, I won't stay." 51:54 They didn't wanna keep me, so I said, "Okay, we'll move on." And so I was kinda looking then from September until December. The, the transfer window doesn't open until then. Um, so 52:07 I was thinking, "Oh, well, I don't really have much to do." And I train with, um, a personal, my personal trainer, Milos, back home. 52:14 I'd been training with him just about every day just to keep fit and, um, I've known him since I was really young and he's helped me so much, um, throughout my professional career. 52:25 Um, and he said, "Look, we can maybe send you overseas to, to Europe. We have some contacts in Slovakia, uh, we could kind of see how you go. It's, it's in September, it's a bit late though, um, so 52:36 we're not really too sure what might be able to happen." Um, and I hadn't played for seven months. I'd just been training on my own. So I kinda thought, "All right. Well, I'll just give it a crack and go over." 52:47 Uh, I think I might have spent two or three weeks over there. Two weeks over in Slovakia. 52:52 I had a trial with a second division club, um, who said they would have loved to have me at the time, but they didn't have any, uh, spots, um, 'cause obviously it was September, it was full. 53:04 So they said, "Couldn't have you until January." Um, and then I ended up going on trial with another club in the first division, but that didn't, uh, go too well. It was unsuccessful. Um, 53:17 so I ended up after that just coming back home and going back to training with Milos again un-until I could find something. And those stints in Slovakia, 53:27 could you tell it wasn't gonna be successful, or did you get a feeling that, one, either the level's different, I don't fit in, or, or just that they've got a, a full group? Or did you think something might come of that? 53:39 Um, and how did those conversations go? Do the club sort of just pull you aside after a few days or after a few weeks? Yeah. 53:46 Well, it was really interesting and it was quite difficult because it was kind of off, off the cuff. I mean, everything kind of happened pretty quickly. Um, and I think Milos and, and his dad, Miro, were 53:56 doing me a favor. 53:57 Obviously, they, they've known me s-since I was really young, and I'd actually spoken to them about it when I was younger, you know, at 18, 19, whether I'd go over and whatnot, but I decided to stay here. 54:07 And it's obviously a lot different when you're going over to Europe as a 18, 19-year-old, 54:13 whereas when you're, when you're 25, it's a, it's a big thing because especially in, in a league like Slovakia, they're, they're looking to produce you as a young player and then sell you off to a, to a different league, to a bigger league and, and make money from you. 54:24 Whereas when you're a bit older, they can't really do that. Um, 54:29 so everything kinda was, I suppose, a bit off the cuff and they had a contact who was really good there, family friend, um, and I stayed at his house at the time and he, he was the, the guy, I suppose, on ground there, you know, calling clubs for me, trying to get me some training and, um, 54:46 it definitely... it was difficult. 54:47 I think maybe even one of the days, um, that I went to train with, I think it was with the second division club, they weren't even expecting me to be thereUm, but I suppose for me it was all right at the time. 54:59 I didn't really mind. I just had to get on with it and, and just say, you know, just prove, prove what I can do. Um, and I felt like I did that definitely with that second division club. 55:08 Um, with the, with the first division club, it was, it was a bit different. Um, I feel like the coach as well there, he didn't really... 55:16 wasn't really sure whether I was, I was gonna be there or, um, you know, they didn't really know much about me. They're going, "Well, who's this guy kinda from Australia coming over here?" 55:25 You know, "What's he kinda doing?" Um, but they were definitely all welcoming. Mm. Not to say that they weren't welcoming and stuff like that, but it's just, it's, you know, it's strange. 55:34 You know, the season's kinda just started, this guy's kinda come from nowhere. Um, but the players and whatnot were all very welcoming as well. Um, 55:43 and yeah, I ended up playing, I think, a trial game with the, that, the club in the first division and, um, I didn't have the best of games [chuckles] for whatever reason. 55:52 I just, just one of those days, I suppose, and after that they said, "Look, um, kinda thanks for coming, but, but no thanks." Um, and from then I just had to decide whether I wanted to, to try stay there. 56:04 They'd, they'd said to me, um, "You know, we could probably find you a club here in the third division until January and then try and shift you to a professional club." 56:13 But, uh, for me that wasn't really a risk I wanted to take at the time, 'cause obviously a third division club is, it's only semi-pro. You wouldn't be earning, 56:22 I don't know, maybe €500 a month if you're lucky or something from the club. Um, and to live off that at my age, it just wasn't really worth the risk. 56:30 So I decided to, to come back home and keep training until something came up. It sounds like, and, and we'll just chat quickly about the South Korea move shortly, but that it can be a lot of limbo I guess as well. 56:43 Like if, if you're either out of contract or you're looking for new things like that, you could be sent to places and, and you think it might be all good, but as you say, they've just started a season, the coach probably has a squad, he's trying to focus on what's happening, and then you're coming in. 56:56 So I know what you mean, it's a bit of an awkward feeling. 56:58 Um, as much as everyone's welcoming, it's, yeah, it can be a little bit, uh, make you a bit unsure and, um, and then you just don't, don't know where the opportunities are gonna come from. Um, yeah. 57:08 But good experiences, and I guess what it shows is that you just have to go and, and sort of try these things sometimes, don't you? That's the only way you're gonna know. Yeah. 57:16 I think e- especially for me in, in that position, I didn't really have anything to lose. You know, I hadn't, I hadn't played in almost a year. I'd just been training on my own and, um, 57:27 mentally I just, I needed to go out and try something different and play football. Kinda just, 57:33 e- even just to get away from, from Australia, get out there and just try something, just to be in an environment where it was just footy. Um, you know, I think that's the most important thing is 57:45 f- football is definitely, it's not always gonna be a, a s- an easy ride and just, it's gonna be up and down like that. Um, and that year definitely was, was pretty tough for me. You know, I spent just about 57:58 the better half of nine, 10 months just training on my own. Yeah, it was almost a year until I found my next move. Um, 58:07 and I suppose I did everything in my, that I possibly could've to, to, to get that next contract, and that was my only goal. Um, there were definitely times where I thought about just, 58:19 you know, just giving it up and just go, "Oh, I'll just go play, go play semi-pro somewhere and, you know, find a job or, or whatever." There's, those thoughts definitely pass your mind. Um, 58:30 I suppose you, you need a bit of luck as well at the end of the day, which I was, I was pretty lucky to get this move, but, um, I was definitely, you know, working really hard and just waiting for an opportunity for that whole time. 58:43 Yeah, and I think in, in a lot of different experiences with different people, it's, is if you just don't give up, you know, good things will happen. If you just keep trying, keep trying like that. 58:52 You will have days where you're like, "Is it worth all the hassle? I'm traveling all around the world and I'm not getting anywhere." It's probably costing you money in some ex- you know, some circumstances. 59:01 But if you've got that, that drive and that belief that, yeah, I'll just keep going, keep going, something will come, then, you know, around the corner hopefully something will come. Yeah. 59:10 I, I think that's, that's it 100% for, for anyone, whether it's in, in football or, or whatever, you know, walk of life or whatever you do, you just gotta kinda stick to it if, if that's what you really wanna do and that's what you believe in. 59:22 Um, you know, I, I believe that if you work hard enough and, and you put your heart into it and everything, at the end of the day it'll come back and, you know, you'll get your reward. Um, 59:33 I suppose, and like I said before, you definitely, you definitely need a bit of luck as well, and once, once that lucky chance comes or that bit of luck comes, you gotta, you gotta grab it with both hands, that opportunity, and, and make the most of it. 59:44 And how did you come across this career move then? Um, that's obviously nearly 12 months or almost 12 months of, of not actually playing football. How did you get that move and, and how did it start? Yeah. 59:56 So w- when I was over in Slovakia actually and, um, towards the end of this, after these trials and I was deciding what I was gonna do, whether stay or not, and, um, I ended up, um, trying with a new agent as well. 1:00:11 I thought I may, might need to try something different. You know? Um, I'd loved everything my previous agent had done and, and whatnot. He was, he was great. He was awesome. 1:00:20 Um, but I thought maybe if I try someone else, they might have different contacts, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so I ended up doing that. 1:00:28 Um, and he was able to, once I got back in Australia, he started obviously looking for me with, with other clubs again. 1:00:35 There was still another three months, I think I got back in October or September, um, until the window was gonna open up. So he said, "All right. I'll, I'll just look for you. 1:00:45 You just gotta get back training and whatnot. Um, stay fit, stay ready because, you know, an opportunity can come and, um, one day..." Actually, sorry, before that, I just remember now, 1:00:58 um-In December, he said, "There's an opportunity over in Vietnam, would you be interested?" So I said, "Okay, let's, let's go." Um, they, they organized flights for me to, to go over, and I trialed with the club there. 1:01:11 I think I was there for about a week. This is actually over Christmas as well, so, um, [chuckles] spent Chrissy in, you know, a hotel room by myself in Vietnam, which was pretty good. 1:01:21 Um, and the club there, th- they were actually interested to sign me, but they said, "We can't sign you until June, um, because there's a... 1:01:33 As an AFC player, I would've been the Australian AFC player, um, for Vietnam, and they said, "That rule doesn't come in until June, so we, you'd have to wait." Um, so I kinda said, "Okay, well, that's fine." 1:01:44 And, and then went back home, and I think it may be a week later, um, my agent had called me and said, "Look, there's a team in Korea that's interested." Um, and I kinda said, "All right, let's do it." 1:01:55 And yeah, that's-- it kind of just all happened pretty quickly, which I think as so often happens in, in football. Yeah, definitely. 1:02:03 I've heard a few stories now where it's, you know, someone makes contact, and within two days you're in another country and, and you're training and playing and ready to go, which is a bit of a whirlwind in itself, and [inhales] 1:02:13 I can't even think of what I was gonna ask then before about the, the Korea move. But, oh, that's what I was gonna touch on, the agent and the change of agent, which is quite interesting. I-is that-- how did you... 1:02:26 Not how did you come about or, or go around that, but did you speak to people that had agents, and is it because particular agents have better contacts in different areas, or did you talk to players you knew or the PFA, or how did you sorta navigate moving from one to the other? 1:02:41 Yeah, I think, um, players generally chat about, you know, their agents a-and whatnot, and often these days you can see it on-online, on- Mm... 1:02:50 you know, on their Instagram or, or whatever, that you can see the agencies and, you know, they're posting about their players, and you can see where, where they've got contacts and, and whatnot. Um, 1:03:00 it-- the football was-- it's interesting because obviously, you know, a lot of it is about who, who knows who. Um, you, you can't deny that a lot of it is politics. 1:03:09 Um, but that's, that's not to say that it's, you know, the main thing about it. Um, but for me, I think it just at the time, I just, I just needed to do something. 1:03:18 I was just thinking of the things, um, that I needed to do to, to get a new move, and 1:03:24 w-whether I still would have came to Korea as a possibility, even if, even if I didn't, um, change my agent at the time, it's still possible that I, I still would have came here. 1:03:31 But I j- I just felt like I needed to, to do something, I suppose, and be proactive and just try different things. Um, and at the end of the day, I ended up, like, getting a move over here. 1:03:43 Whether it was because of that or not, who's to say? Um, but I think the th- the thing for me at the time was just I had to try something different and change it, you know, f-for whatever reason. And 1:03:58 are you, when you're dealing with your first agent, are you under any particular contract with him? 1:04:02 Did you have to-- obviously you, you're happy with him, but at the same time, you know, I'm breaking up with you in a way. [chuckles] Like how did that go of, "I wanna try something else"? 1:04:09 Were they quite supportive around it all? Yeah, I, I had a, a really good relationship with my, my first agent. He was really good, and I think my contract had finished with him even a couple of years before. Um, 1:04:20 and it, he was kinda, I suppose, working with me in good faith and whatnot, and he was always good about that, and, and, you know, he never even spoke to, to me about money or, or anything like that. 1:04:32 Um, he was really good and, and always supportive of me and whatnot. Um, I think maybe he, he probably was surprised at the time when I told him I wanted to do this and, and whatnot. 1:04:42 Um, I ended up speaking to him on the phone about it and whatnot. Um, but I think he understood as well, and he kind of just said, you know, "If that's what you wanna do, that's fine. You can, you can go do that." 1:04:54 Um, [sniffs] I'm sure maybe with other agents it may have been different, but I, I can't really say a bad word about him and the way he, he kind of was with me. That's it. 1:05:06 Sometimes it is, it's just you, you do need something different or a fresh start, and whether that's an agent or a club or, you know, whatever it may be, but just to give you that kick on to, to try something else. 1:05:15 'Cause as you say, you never know what's around the corner, and, and it's been good that you're able to get something quick and, and get across there. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. 1:05:23 A-a- like for, for me as well, like I said earlier, you know, the, the most important thing for me was [chuckles] similar to, to that position I was in, um, after playing with Sydney in, in the youth team and, and after Sydney with the first team as well, it was just about getting back onto the park and getting minutes. 1:05:37 Mm. Um, in, in football, that's probably the most important thing is, is to have consistent minutes, and I've learned to know that, um, as I've gotten older. 1:05:46 Um, you c- you can be at a really great club and, but if you're not playing too much, you're not gonna have too much interest from anywhere. 1:05:53 The most important thing is to be, to be on the park, and clubs want players with experience and with games under their belt. Um, and that's what's gonna allow you to, I suppose, continue in your, in your career. 1:06:05 Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more, and I think, um, even that perception, it doesn't matter what league you're in, but if you're playing professionally, whether it be in Thailand, India, Malaysia, but you're playing week in, week out, getting lots of game time, you are a much more attractive prospect then to another club, and hopefully like that you're just making your way up the ladder to, you know, secure a good deal where you might be comfortable, you might get more money, you might be in a good country. 1:06:28 It could be loads of different opportunities. But yeah, and I think you've, you've probably summed it up quite well there with, with the game time. 1:06:35 You've seen all the different avenues of it, of playing, uh, you know, in second division Thailand, but then being in an A league winning club, but how important the games are, you know, just to be playing. 1:06:47 Yeah, that, that's right. 1:06:48 I mean, I, I kind of thought to myself maybe at the, at the start when I was at Sydney, you know, I was, "Even if I don't play, I'll be at a club who-who's gonna be winning the, the, the games and winning championships, so I'll be able to find something after." 1:06:59 ButYou know, I was soon to find out that I was, you know, very wrong about that, and clubs much prefer players who've been playing, which is understandable as well. 1:07:07 They want players who've been playing, and they can see that they've, um, been playing, 'cause w- when, when clubs look at a player who hasn't, who hasn't played much, they think, "Well, what's wrong with him? 1:07:18 First of all, why isn't he playing?" You know, if he's that good a player or has he got injury concerns, is there something else? There's a lot of doubts. 1:07:26 Um, so it, it does go to show that just getting those game times is, is a massive thing for, for a football player, um, you know, for their, for their CV and to, to present to other clubs. Definitely, and, um, 1:07:42 you can see that playing the games and also taking risks on, on different things, which is what you've done, you just have to do it, don't you, to, to make this happen and be a full-time professional somewhere. 1:07:53 It doesn't matter where, but you, you just have to do those things. Yeah, 100%. I, I think f- football or professional sport in a sense is probably a really, 1:08:03 um, double-edged sword in, in terms of the job because you're, you're obviously doing the sport that you love. You get to do it every day. 1:08:09 Um, you know, you're with your mates, you're staying fit, you're staying healthy, all these, all these good things as well, but there's also the other side that comes with it. 1:08:17 Um, you know, the pressures of, of playing at a level, a professional level, um, other things like, like contracts and stuff like that. You know, football is not a very secure job. 1:08:27 Things can change like that, whether it's an injury, whether a coach doesn't like you, you're not in the team anymore. Um, 1:08:34 like for myself, you know, I had almost 12 months without, without playing and, and that for me, that was 12 months without a job. 1:08:41 Um, you know, so you gotta think about other things like financial stability and, and whatnot. It's, it's not easy, especially when you're playing at that kind of... 1:08:50 you're not at the top level of, of the Premier League kind of levels, you know, where you can afford to have 12 months off if you want really. You could play a couple seasons there, and you'd be happy with that. 1:09:00 You know, you can go do whatever. Um, so it's definitely, I think a lot of people from the outside, um, they don't really realize it at this kind of level, um, of professional football. 1:09:12 You know, the s- the football's really high standard still. Mm. But in terms of, you know, financial backing and whatnot, it's, it's not all like the Premier League and La Liga and Serie A. 1:09:22 We're, we're not all getting paid like that. You know, we're just normal people like you guys- Mm... working, working our job. 1:09:29 And on, on that, because you've been living, I suppose, in, in countries which will have a lower cost of living, have you been able to or is that something you plan to, you obviously said you're studying, but do you send your money home and, and look to invest it or, or do stuff with it back here to help you for when you're older? 1:09:43 Yeah. That, that's definitely my plan, um, to, to send my money back home and, and try to, to invest in, in stuff back home for, for post-career, um, and whatnot. 1:09:56 Um, there's [chuckles] actually another problem, it's funny you, you mentioned that, that I've encountered as well as, as a player. 1:10:02 Um, I was speaking with a mortgage broker the other week to, to try and see if I could get a loan to put in an investment, 1:10:10 and he said, "Oh, you know, you, you might have enough saved up, but banks are gonna look at your contract and say, 'You've got a one-year deal. What's, what's gonna happen after that?'" 1:10:19 You know, it's, it's really hard to convince them, um, especially if you've only got a one-year contract, that you, you can actually go and make this investment. It's a big risk for them. 1:10:28 So that's another part, um, that I suppose is difficult, uh, especially when you're playing over here in Asia, 'cause often it is one, one year, two year probably max deals that you're gonna get here. 1:10:40 Um, and it's another thing to consider, uh, in terms of if you do wanna invest in stuff like that, things you gotta think about. 1:10:49 Yeah, no, that's a good point actually, um, because yeah, as you say, the banks need to see some sort of, I suppose, schedule or, or full-time work that you can s- service the loan in a way. 1:10:59 And, uh, no matter what job you're playing, as, as great as it sounds to be a professional footballer in Korea, on paper for them, it's a bit risky. So yeah, that's, that's actually a really interesting point. Yeah. 1:11:08 Um, something which hasn't come up before, but it's something which makes a lot of sense. Yeah, 100%. 1:11:15 A- and the other thing as well, if you're looking to invest back home and you've got a, you know, you're, you've got a foreign income, that's a, another thing for them to think about as well, and it's, um, it definitely has been interesting in terms of, in terms of that stuff. 1:11:29 Well, that's it, then you've got to worry about, yeah, different, different taxes, and, and we're gonna have someone on the show actually to talk about that in a few weeks. 1:11:34 So taxes, getting your money home, and like that, buying property, whatever it is, it's not an easy thing to do, uh, when you're over there. And who do you reach out to for that? 1:11:42 Do you speak with the PFA to, to help you in that regard as a, as a footballer, like as an Australian footballer? Or do you have a support network that you sort of lean on for that type of thing? Yeah. 1:11:52 I've, I've spoken with PFA, and they actually, they put me in contact, um, with a guy, Tim Pullman, who's been really helpful for me. 1:11:59 I think he does a lot of, um, tax work with a lot of the boys in the A-League locally and, and overseas as well. Yeah. 1:12:05 Um, when I was first in Thailand coming back home, he really helped me, uh, with my tax situation because I didn't receive any payslips or group certificates, um, from Thailand, uh, the club at the time, so I was, um, 1:12:21 a bit worried about what I had to do, and, and Tim was really helpful, um, with that. 1:12:26 Um, he's someone I suppose I kind of have leaned on, um, to help me with the whole situation, you know, bringing money back, et cetera, et cetera, and what's the best way or what's the tax, you know, how's it gonna affect me and my position, et cetera. 1:12:40 Yeah, no, it's good working through the PFA, and Tim, he's the one that's gonna be, um, he's gonna be jumping on soon 'cause like that he deals with a lot of players in a lot of countries along with locally. 1:12:49 Uh, very switched on when it comes to that, and it can really help the players when they're overseas to have someone that, you know, the PFA recommends to speak to as well. 1:12:57 Yeah, 100%.Well, Patrick, this has been a really, really interesting chat, mate. 1:13:01 I, I really appreciate your time, and it, and it just like the overwhelming, I suppose, message out of this is like that you wanna follow your dreams, you need to be playing games, and you gotta be taking risks. 1:13:12 That's, um, that's pretty much been the story of your last seven or eight year- or five or six years, I'd imagine. 1:13:16 Like taking risks in different countries that you're, you're unsure of, um, but, but going for it and, and hoping that, you know, being prepared and, and that something and a little bit of luck comes along the way. Yeah. 1:13:27 I think if, if, if you sum it up like that, it's, it's probably right. I mean, for me, I've had a bit of a, an interesting journey, I think, looking back on it now. 1:13:35 Um, I'm, I'm still only 26, so obviously I'm hoping I've got a few more years still down the track- Mm... of, of playing footy. 1:13:42 Um, I think just for me the, the best thing out of it for me is just to be able to do what I've loved, um, as a job, and that's always been what I wanted to do since I was a kid is to, is to play professionally. And, um, 1:13:57 you know, I, I've always worked hard to, to try and be where I am a- and whatnot, and, uh, not only for myself but, you know, for, for my family and for, for mom and dad- Mm... 1:14:07 and, and whatnot, what, you know, they had to go through when I was younger- Mm... and all the things they did to, to help me out, getting training a- and whatnot to gain and stuff like that. 1:14:15 So, um, I think you just need to draw on, um, all those l- different things to, to kinda help you. Um, it's definitely interesting being overseas and, and, and hard at times. Um, but at the same time, it's really... 1:14:32 it's an awesome thing really. If, if you think about it, how lucky you are, and I was actually out at dinner the other week with, um, Aaron Carver who's playing over here, and, 1:14:41 you know, he said, "How, how weird is this, you know? 1:14:44 We were playing together at Sydney, you know, seven years or six years ago," however long it was, "and, you know, here we are in Korea, the other side of the world, you know, sitting having dinner together." 1:14:53 It's, it's really strange, and I suppose it's moments like that where you just kinda gotta sit back and you think, you know, how good you really have it and- Mm... um, yeah, just be grateful for it, and 1:15:06 it's, it's really good. The best job in the world, I suppose, at the end of the day. That's it. 1:15:10 And that's, um, you know, one of the drivers behind these sort of interviews and, and podcasts was letting people know that there are fantastic opportunities out there. 1:15:19 Like, it's not gonna be easy, but outside of your home country, there are so many opportunities to play football in different leagues, and it might be Div one or Div two, but it's professional, you're getting full-time pay, and like that, it's a stepping stone to somewhere. 1:15:31 And lifelong experience in different cultures, different countries, languages, like, just, you know, a really, really cool experience while you're fit enough to do it. 100%. I think that you're spot on with that. 1:15:41 I think there's, there's a lot of opportunity for, for boys back home to, to come over to Asia and play, um, whether they're in the A League or, or even in the NPL because I think we've got a big talent pool, you know- Mm... 1:15:54 in the NPL throughout the country, and you can see that in those, in the Australia Cup games and, and whatnot as well. Um, you know, and I'd advise if, if boys do have a crack from overseas. 1:16:04 Obviously, you need to be careful, and you need to take a calculated risk. You don't wanna be going to, to something- Yeah... that's just gonna be an absolute, um, horrific kind of time. 1:16:15 So you obviously need to do a bit of research and background on it. 1:16:19 But, you know, really at the end of the day, the, the kind of, um, thought process I had, uh, and I've always had going overseas is, you know, h- home's always gonna be there for me back home in, in Sydney. 1:16:30 You know, I can, I can come over here, and I'll give it a crack whilst I can. If it goes wrong, I can, I can always go back home, you know? 1:16:36 I've, I've kinda got nothing to lose, and, um, that would, I suppose, be my advice for any players who, who do have the opportunity to go overseas. Why not? Give it a crack. 1:16:45 If you don't like it, you can, you can always come back home and, you know, go back to what you were doing before. Yeah. No, definitely. I couldn't agree more with that. 1:16:53 It's a, uh, a really good way to wrap that up 'cause it, that makes a lot of sense. I believe in that as well. Home will always be there. You know, Sydney's gonna be there. No one's going anywhere. 1:17:02 Um, you can come back when the time's right, but until then, yeah, go and, and chase that dream and, and give it a good go. Yeah. 100%. No, amazing, mate. Thank you again very much for, for being on today. 1:17:13 I really appreciate it. Thanks, Chris. Cheers, mate. Thanks for having me. Oh, I've just stopped the recording, but you're still on. No, awesome, mate. It's cool. Well done.
